Mentheus of Chrace wrote:The first paragraph of each unit description indicates their equipment options.
And you just decide what it has? So surely every unit has every possible upgrade?
That seems to be the suggestion:
"Archmages wield a Magestaff. Some
also carry a Book of Hoeth, to aid them in
casting spells, while others instead prefer
to wield a Sword of Saphery alongside their
Magestaff to smite their foes in combat.
Almost every Archmage also carries a
Talisman of Arcane Power to aid him in
dispelling the fell sorceries of his foes."
Or in the old format:
Equipment: Magestaff
Mount: Dragon
Options:
May take a Book of Hoeth (unless the model has a Sword of Saphery)... x points
May take a Sword of Saphery (unless the model has a Book of Hoeth)... x points
May take a Talisman of Arcane Power... x points.
White Lion * Aestyrion * Griffon Knight
Malekith stepped down from his throne and loomed over the mage. ‘You have always intended for Tyrion to draw the Widowmaker.’
Teclis nodded, defiant. 'By drawing again His sword, the curse of Khaine will be lifted from our line.'
But this game looks fun. I can play 40k without buying 40k models. Yay.
Edit*
Also the balance looks nice. Just a bunch of models that hit each other and wound on X. Like kings of war. Very little of this 1+ re-rollable save with a 3+ ward crap. Characters seem to be able to reroll armor saves, but with no ward saves on them and 3+ being the best available so far, who cares. They can't stand in units so they need something.
I also love the monsters getting weaker as they take damage. If they're clever, hydras will get more attacks as they gain injuries. Would be a more original mechanic than regen.
Ah, Floorhammer. A time honored tradition. Sadly, I no longer play since my brother tripped and right-angled the spears of a 15-man regiment.
-Original Dragon Prince, July 2011
Yeah I'm breathing a sigh of relief. There are rules for everything I want to use, and they seem to be quite well thought out and interesting. I'm looking forward to some friendly games to see how it works.
I intend to run all my units mostly in tight formations on movement trays, and only spread things out if I need to block something.
I definitely think a bit of comp could make this viable for competitive tournaments. Just a per model points system and perhaps a limit of two characters per army. Plus a limit to base size and a limit to height of flying models to prevent invincible conversions. Points values could evolve over time based on the meta. I actually trust ETC to work out balanced points values more than I'd trust GW anyway.
Competitive tournies will be hard, I think, with 360 line of sight. All the subtlety of the move phase is gone. This just seems like fire-and-forget-fun with a few strategic decisions of medium importance tossed in.
Ah, Floorhammer. A time honored tradition. Sadly, I no longer play since my brother tripped and right-angled the spears of a 15-man regiment.
-Original Dragon Prince, July 2011
I'm tryingto understand this game but I don't get it.
"Archmages wield a Magestaff. Some
also carry a Book of Hoeth, to aid them in
casting spells, while others instead prefer
to wield a Sword of Saphery alongside their
Magestaff to smite their foes in combat.
Almost every Archmage also carries a
Talisman of Arcane Power to aid him in
dispelling the fell sorceries of his foes."
What exactly does he have? Is there any description of those magic items? How can I choose it?
Galharen wrote:I'm tryingto understand this game but I don't get it.
"Archmages wield a Magestaff. Some
also carry a Book of Hoeth, to aid them in
casting spells, while others instead prefer
to wield a Sword of Saphery alongside their
Magestaff to smite their foes in combat.
Almost every Archmage also carries a
Talisman of Arcane Power to aid him in
dispelling the fell sorceries of his foes."
What exactly does he have? Is there any description of those magic items? How can I choose it?
The same way you decide everything else. If the model looks like it might have it you give it to him. The description is right there on the scroll. It really is that simple.
The way I read it; all archmages have a staff and talisman. Although you can choose not to have the talisman, there is no reason not to take it. Then you can choose between the book and the sword, but not both.
Lack of point values might be a blessing in disguise in the long run, as internet communities provide a balanced set (not one, but there's bound to be some sort of fluctuating consensus). For now however - its a nightmare. I really wanted to try the game - just test the mechanics by myself. How do I do that? How do I chose an army? I went to my GW today, I even saw a game played - still no idea. They guys were excited (though it seemed force) about the very rules people ridicule - Hellborg's mustache, Mask's dancing - but the game itself? Whatever.
I picked up the White Dwarf with the free mini - I'm considering an Imperial Fists colour scheme...
cheers, Lee
Elven Field Surgeon, Department of Intensive Care, Resuscitation and Necromancy
Well going to give this a fair go, although I really doubt it will be able to hold my attention for all that long. Watched a bit of the 1+ armour stream of the aos game. Certainly looks very messy on the tabletop, I'll be using movement trays for as long as I can.
Playing around with lists using wounds as a points system (doesn't really work though, e.g. a mage and teclis are both 5 wounds, a frosty with or without an annointed/caradrayan have 12 wounds, obviously much stronger with the rider) a few things occurred to me about the high elf list:
- The high elf list seems all about force multiplication using the heroes command abilities, most of the units are pretty meh without buffs.
- First thing in your army has got to be the prince on dragon, beast in combat, can give him 4+ rerollable, 14 wounds, the elven war horn is pretty tempting (once per game friendly models within 10" make an extra attack), most important though is his command ability, it lets 3 other heroes within 16" use their command abilities even if they're not your general. Pretty much all of the high elf heroes have significant buff abilities so this is huge.
- Phoenix guard look pretty broken, with a 2" range on their weapons and 20mm bases (yes gw bases do matter) you can effectively fight 3 ranks deep, so 30 of them with a champ can potentially put out 61 attacks (91 if you use the elven warhorn), and there are loads of ways to give them rerolls to hit and to wound (caradryan, seahelm, princes, eltharion).
Hitting and wounding on 3's, no rend but w/e doesn't seem a big deal not much has better than a 4+ save. To top it off they kept their 4+ ward (LOL) so this unit somehow became even better than in Warhammer. Hammer and anvil all in one, don't see why you'd bother with white lions or sword masters with these guys around tbh.
- Teclis gets plus 2 to cast and unbind, seems a reasonably big deal, his tempest spell might be great might be useless, hard to say without playtesting. Still not sure though how one keeps like normal wizards alive or even non monster heroes alive, they just seem like shooting magnets.
- Alarielle, her regen spell seems great for keeping your dragon general alive (d6 wounds back)
- Dragon princes, hit really hard, mystic shield them and they wont die much.
- Bolt throwers now shoot 12 multishots or 2 normal if they dont move. Sounds awesome but then I read what cannons do, ouch.
- Lothern sea helm with seadrake pennant, gives plus +1 to wound to UNITS (not models) within 8", not sure if it includes shooting just says when attacking. His command ability seems pretty boss too.
- Sisters of averlorn are now machine guns, and the only thing i've seen yet that can stand and shoot
- Eltharion is actually pretty good, he has rend -2 which very little in the elf army has, he's a wizard, he's reasonably survivable, take him, don't make him the general, awesome command ability which you use the dragon prince to unlock.
- Both phoenixes look very good, put Caradrayan on the frostie, it becomes even better, he has a great command ability.
Anyway those are just my initial thoughts, got some games lined up during the week so will see what happens. Fortunately we seem to have gotten off pretty lightly in regards to the stupid rules that involve you making a dick of yourself.
I get that people will say that I've totally missed the point in that this isn't about power levels it's just a way to shove stuff around a table, but w/e, it's how I think about things and I absolutely loved list building in every edition of warhammer. I really hope people come up with some kind of standardised way of roster building, atm it's absence is a big turn off for me, no balance = no game, it's just playtime for kids.
Also a couple of questions:
- Does mystic shield stack? It's never mentioned whether it does or not. They say a wizard can only attempt to cast each spell once, it doesn't mention multiple wizards casting the same spell on the same target. If so what do saves max out at, 1+?
- Do you have to pick a target when attempting to cast? Teclis has the rule where he can potentially double the range of a spell based on his roll to cast, ideally that would mean he could pick a target after having rolled, it is not addressed at all.
Given that the number of dispel attempts is limited I can't imagine this didn't come up during play testing (I actually know for certain they do this, but it's not exactly scientific; it's just guys in the publications department playing around with it (they have to see rules early so they might as well be the ones to test it to keep the number of people with access to a minimum, cos you know otherwise the russians will win the war or whatever the hell it is gw are so paranoid about)).
Been giving this a lot of thought and I think tactically this game will work a lot like War of the Ring (another mostly Jervis written game, it had points but they were often horrendously way off what they should have been, much worse than in warhammer), it had very similar phases. In wotr heroes were really just force multipliers and gave you access to might. Magic was basic compared to warhammer (very unbalanced but easily house ruled to fix), but it was a masters degree compared to this crap, similar kinds of effects though.
In WotR the standard sort of tactic was to use an infantry front line with your cavalry or ideally flying monsters behind. In your movement phase you would then shove your infantry in their face, then at the double (march) your flyers and cavalry to the rear or flank, and then charge everything in. Usually you would have to get your infantry in a turn before because of distance but heroic monsters like Glorfindel and the Nazgul on Fell beasts could do it in the same turn. I think similar tactics could be very effective in this although less rewarding as their is no concept or relevant penalties/bonuses from flank and rears.
Or just pick 3 dragons, get the sudden death rules, pick a soft unit or hero to kill, turn 1 charge it, smash it to smitherenes, then tell your opponent to pack up his crap and yell AGE OF THOR in his face.
There isn't really getting away from the fact that AoS is incredibly shallow when compared to warhammer, not just in terms of tactics (consider how many fewer decisions there are to make, e.g. there is no downside to just casting every spell, the mind game of the magic phase is gone, no more charge reactions or redirecting or trying to panic stuff, no more challenges), but there is very little customisation available in your army for those who liked to have their own personal theme and characters.
Did anyone else read the high elf fluff summary? They've been castrated basically and are now refugees raising militias for thor. Thanks gw.
Anyway if anyone bothered to read that hope it was useful/interesting/something to read while the exhaust pipe fills your car up.
p.s. I kind of wish this was a more adult oriented forum, I've had to clean this up so much lol.
Just had my first game of AoS. I was pleasantly surprised with the results, and think the core rules are written well enough that with a little comp or a gentleman's agreement, you can get a really good game.
Also the balance looks nice. Just a bunch of models that hit each other and wound on X. Like kings of war. Very little of this 1+ re-rollable save with a 3+ ward crap. Characters seem to be able to reroll armor saves, but with no ward saves on them and 3+ being the best available so far, who cares. They can't stand in units so they need something.
This is I think the savior of the system. It's simple enough that you get the feel of Warhammer without all the questionably-fun aspects. I am a fan of this change in particular, even if it reduces some of the tactical depth of playing very tight armies that have characters / units with very narrow (but powerful) applications.
Competitive tournies will be hard, I think, with 360 line of sight. All the subtlety of the move phase is gone. This just seems like fire-and-forget-fun with a few strategic decisions of medium importance tossed in.
I'm not so sure. The 3" bubble that surrounds units helps to prevent this, and gives you plenty of opportunity to control board space with well-time strategic planning. It should also be possible to isolate parts of your opponent's force by using this rule.
I do think that a Swedish-type comp-system could do wonders for this game, and will be curious as to what the Swedes cook up, if they choose to jump into this arena.
Ielthan wrote:'ve had to clean this up so much lol.
Much appreciated.
Axiem wrote:I do think that a Swedish-type comp-system could do wonders for this game, and will be curious as to what the Swedes cook up, if they choose to jump into this arena.
From TWF, it looks like they are rewriting 8th edition for the guys who were never happy with it.
looks like Island of Blood set is discontinued, store staff told me they dont get it anymore and it also isnt available in online store. bummer, such a great set of models. anyway, I bought the last three boxes in the store.
I've been thinking about this a while now, and there is one thing I don't really understand. Perhaps someone here has an idea about it.
I get that something needed to be done for WH (declining sales / profit etc). And that some form of skirmish / use your collection type of game was the way to go since it lowers the barrier of entry drastically and draws in a younger crowd. The new game even looks fun for the occasional battle.
What I don't really get is why drop the old game in such a drastic way. Why not only drop the print versions of the old rule books (BRB and army books) and only offer the books as ebooks (and then not just for the ipad, but real ebooks). The cost of keeping them on sale would be zero (or as close to it as you can get in retail). They would keep most of their existing customers a lot more happy. They would be able to get as much money from it without additional investment. And, if in future they would want to restart oldschool warhammer (because for instance for some reason AoS is not selling all that well...) it would be as simple as reprinting the existing ebooks and just updating them.
Anyone want to venture a guess why?
Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
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If I had to guess I would imagine that firstly they don't want to have anything that competes with AoS for fantasy income of any sort and considering the money and time they appear to have invested in AoS and the amount of releases being talked about I understand that. Say what you will but it looks like they're going to the hilt in relaunching fantasy.
Secondly I don't think they want to have a continual call for support from the existing base of players, I think they understand they're going to get a certain level of backlash and then they expect it to die down. I don't think it would have died down had 8th ed stayed available but more or less unsupported.
Only in the Dreaming Woods are Mortals truly free, t'was always thus and always thus will be.
Headshot wrote:
Makiwara wrote:Smiths in Nagarythe that can repair the holiest piece of armour worn by the Shadow Prince himself... 0 apparently.
Perhaps because the harder they make it to play the old game Rod, the more chance players will buy the new one?
Edit: ninja'd.
For the moment small UK tournaments are continuing to offer 8th and I've seen one for AoS so far. But that's just a small part of the market here of course.
I too am unhappy with developments but winding up the guys who like the new game is not going to help.
SA
I get that something had to be done but you could just correct some stuff in 8th edition and add new rules for beginners + skirmish battles.
pleasing every customer, new and old? what a strange concept...
as I have already mentioned in another post, alot of marketing in tabletop gaming is reputation. many players (like myself) got into it because someone else pointed towards it. now old playerbase is unhappy and telling everyone to not waste your money. how is GW going to raise profit with such a reputation?
I see it the same way as Makiwara said. They needed a drastic reboot. The game had to change, so it can attract a broader, younger audience (and drive sales more easily).
Once you make that conclusion, it's either all-in, or fold. You can not make such a large reboot, and then keep its biggest competitor online for free.
Additionally,
- Keeping the old game alive with free e-books would cast a doubt on their new product. I've seen the trouble caused by team leaders without the balls to cut old threads in IT systems. There's no end to the moneypit that can create.
- Keeping an unsupported game alive may cost them a 10 cents, which is 10 reasons not to do it. I think it would make their logistics a lot more complex as well, if only in managing the website menus. Yes, even that isn't worth the cost.
- I'll probably need to turn down the volume of my speakers, or they would explode with all the rage from people who "bought the book that's now for free". It might even give copyright issues.
It's why I have some faith in Age of Sigmar. The only restraint G.W. will show is to protect 40K. That's the line they won't cross... but it will go nuts on AoS and it will succeed or die in a blaze of glory.
To be fair cpt, GW has had a loud group of people giving them very bad press for a fair while now. Some of that would be warranted, some wouldn't be. I think if they concerned themselves too much with bad press of that sort they wouldn't develop anything new and developing new models and games for those models is pretty much the cornerstone of their business.
What we can't say is that changing 8th in this or that way would have fulfilled GW's needs for the game because we A) don't know the requirements GW bound themselves in and B) we can't say with any real certainty that it would have provided the solution.
We can say what we would have preferred for sure but unless we're sitting on the GW board we really have no idea why they're doing what they're doing.
Also, you can't please every customer, that leads to paralyses by input and analysis, you can please the largest amount of customers possible with your service and I'm sure that's what GW think AoS will do. The truth or lie of that belief will be a matter of wait and see.
Only in the Dreaming Woods are Mortals truly free, t'was always thus and always thus will be.
Headshot wrote:
Makiwara wrote:Smiths in Nagarythe that can repair the holiest piece of armour worn by the Shadow Prince himself... 0 apparently.
I would like to add following points to the discussion:
1. No one seems to argue there WHFB had several problems. However, these problems were the result of GW decisions in the past years but it is existing player base that is the most affected (no matter what they think about AoS).
2. Everybody seemed to agree the change was needed. However, the fact that GW decided to go this particular path does not mean it was the only option or the best one either.
3. By releasing skirmish system GW decided to follow other companies instead of being a pioneer in the field they have created.
For point one though, existing customers are always the most affected by changes to services, that's just how it goes. Which right now sucks for us who are in the dark, being the existing customers. What change that means for us in the long term and what GW has intended in the long term we don't know; could be rubbish, could be great, could be a matter of personal preference vs traditional Warhammer. We simply don't know yet, but I guarantee that this is GW's best plan and that it would have been formulated to keep as many of us as happy as possible whilst still ensuring it's prime directives. Regardless of what we joke about with GW, they're a 160 odd million pound company, no company that size does things frivolously, or throws away market share. That's the kind of things the suits are actually good at looking at and prioritizing. How it goes from there to the game designers and sculptures and so on, I don't think we can say. Again could be a steaming pile, could be gold, could be on the scale somewhere in between.
As for existing problems I wouldn't put all of the blame on GW and not on the consumer/gamer/veteran certainly, there's a more complex game that goes on with decisions at that level that build momentum on their own.
The analogy that I would use is a car's drive train. I want to increase my cars performance. A cost effective step to achieve this is install a high performance clutch so I do so. The high performance clutch places more strain on my flywheel so I have to replace that, it's more expensive than the clutch, but it's worth it so I go ahead with this as well. I then go and increase some other things unrelated to the drive train, having been assured that my drive train is performing well, those things increase the power of the car, I'm happy because I'm achieving my goal of better performance, when suddenly I'm having gearbox issues. I shouldn't be having gearbox issues because the clutch should be the weakest link in that particular train but I increased it's performance and now I'm screwed. Managing anything of the complexity of Warhammer & 40K, as a game/business/model line is always going to create problems of all shapes and sizes, now GW may certainly have been dumping the clutch and helping wear out the gearbox themselves on occasion, but we're never going to get something without big holes that were probably made with the best of intentions for the business and the consumer.
Hopefully what we do get is GW running around patching them as quickly as possible.
As to point 2 and 3 I agree wholeheartedly, but I don't see the full picture, none of us do (or someone's holding out on us and we need to get 'im), unless someone on this board becomes CEO sometime soon I suppose. I don't know why they made those calls but again I can guarantee they were made with a deliberate purpose driven by the needs of the company.
I do think the biggest thing that could have smoothed this transition would have been disclosure. Not a public forum format, with give and take, just making announcements clearly about as much of the content as possible as quickly as possible, but again there could easily be corporate reasons for not doing that that I'm not aware of.
Only in the Dreaming Woods are Mortals truly free, t'was always thus and always thus will be.
Headshot wrote:
Makiwara wrote:Smiths in Nagarythe that can repair the holiest piece of armour worn by the Shadow Prince himself... 0 apparently.
I am aware of shortcomings of the customer point of view. Unfortunately, that is the only one I have at the moment, because, as you said, GW keeps us in the dark (and kept for quite a long time). I don't even pretend I would be able to understand their reasons although I would love to know what they are. I understand they are not meant for the customers to know, it does not change the fact that it would help me to see the bigger picture and maybe not to come to the following conclusion:
Loyalty does not matter, in fact it might even be a liability - in relationship with GW of course.
It simply looks to me that I made a mistake of sticking to Warhammer all the time. I should have played several systems/games in parallel so that if one dies I still have others in the form I like.
I am very curious about the new releases. I rally like many things they did with war scrolls and can't help thinking how wonderful it would be to have them in WHFB. I am sure it is very exciting time for the people who like AoS, it is always fantastic to see new toys being released on regular basis.
I wonder, however, how this decision is going to work in a long term. GW attempts to get new customers, partially from their existing customers (probably from 40k more than WHFB) but also from their competition and simply totally new people (I read they plan to attend many different events, like ComicCons to advertise AoS). So natural question is, if I were a new customer, what does AoS offer that beats the other games/competitors?
Yeah, I'm with you there buddy, full Frustrated Panda mode, hoping for a reprieve.
I don't think loyalty is a factor either, it's just wait and see if our interests align with GW's product as time goes by.
Which sucks, because in reality they might not. Sucks, because when the End Times came out I was a big voice for positivity but now I feel ground down to a nub.
Only in the Dreaming Woods are Mortals truly free, t'was always thus and always thus will be.
Headshot wrote:
Makiwara wrote:Smiths in Nagarythe that can repair the holiest piece of armour worn by the Shadow Prince himself... 0 apparently.
It simply looks to me that I made a mistake of sticking to Warhammer all the time. I should have played several systems/games in parallel so that if one dies I still have others in the form I like.
It stinks that you had to learn that the hard way, and I know there are tons out there in the same situation. But hopefully people do learn from this and branch out. Even if it's only to get a feel for what's out there. There are a lot of people out there who still act as if GW is the only game in town.
There are a lot of companies out there doing really cool things. Watch a game of bolt action if you get a chance. I'm not saying this to get you to play it, but I think you'll be impressed with the turn mechanic. It works really well, and shows how stale GW has gotten in design. Look at X-wing for the same thing. Both players are fully involved the whole time. None of this "I go, you go" that GW seem stuck with (though they did improve it slightly for AoS in that you now take turns choosing the combat order instead of deciding that with a stat. Movement is still me then you however and that's the one that should have been fixed).
I actually started doing so (i.e. looking for other games) when End Times begun and when it was clear big changes are on the way.
I already have some painted models for Flames of War and played a game. Very interesting mechanics where to hit roll depends on the training level of the enemy instead. I might go towards that route but at the moment it also feels like a skirmish game and in terms of history appeal I always preferred Ancients.
I bought X-Wing starter (thanks Jimmy!) and I am intrigued by the rules too, they got my attention with Armada as well. It's still totally different to Warhammer of course and I mainly meant to get into it because I heard the game is good and the support from the producer is fantastic.
I have warmaster/warmaster ancients miniatures I would love to dust off. It is the best system for me I have tried so far. If only there were more players to play against!
I also started to look at uncharted territories for me such as Kings of War 2 (awaiting their new rules coming out this Friday) or some other systems such as Hail Caesar (there is a Fantasy version too).
The point is, however, that it is great to explore new ideas if it is entirely your own decision. It feels stained when you do that because the game you played is not supported anymore and you are kind of forced to do that. I don't know, for a veteran player it looks like you are kicked out of the team because the coach decided you are now playing volleyball, not basketball and you simply prefer to play one game instead of learning how to play the other.
I am sure I will get over it eventually so sorry for a little grumpiness of a veteran. Maybe I should play new Longbeards
Hail Caesar is one that I've been looking at a lot. I've heard a lot of talk about it being the updated warmaster, which as you mentioned is pretty strong praise.
I know what you mean about feeling like you've been forced out, and I'm pretty sure new longbeards is a not so subtle way for GW to mock us...
@Swordmaster
I just got back from deployment and jumped right into Armada. I absolutely love it. As you say, it is completely different, but well worth the investment.
As for Warhammer, I see Kings of War as the natural successor. Alessio is the main rules writer and Rick Preistly is writing an intro for the new rulebook. The rules are simple, yet deep. The movement phase matters. Above all, the company is explicitly committed to making rules for now orphaned Warhammer vets. Skaven, Beastmen, and Empire beta lists are being tuned (and available on their forums) and Lizardmen and Warriors of Chaos are in the works.
[url=http://warhammertruthiness.blogspot.com/]You Can't Handle the Truthiness[/url]:
The demented ramblings of a US Army officer
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I bought X-Wing starter (thanks Jimmy!) and I am intrigued by the rules too, they got my attention with Armada as well. It's still totally different to Warhammer of course and I mainly meant to get into it because I heard the game is good and the support from the producer is fantastic.
I also started x-wing about 6 months back and love it!
I can imagine crating galactic campaigns with Armada and X-Wing
@ John Rainbow
No doubt! I resisted only because I wanted to see what is going to happen and tried to catch up with painting. In both cases, however, I was thinking about these games as something to add to the pool of possible entertainment but not as a replacement for Warhammer. Because of that it is actually good to have painted ships already.
GW wants us to explore new worlds. I wonder if they took into account the fact that the new worlds might not be the ones they created. Something tells me GW did
)](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall"){kind=small}
