Etc draft 3 - HEs kicked in the groin

[finreir]

Submitted my list for call to war etc event
Anointed on frost budgie
L4 heavens
Prince on untrained budgie
Bsb on untrained budgie
15 archers *2
5 helms *2
3 rbt
Frost budgie fits in easily I don't get the hate

My other main list I use is
Prince of doom on steed
Loremaster
L2 high
Bsb on horsi
10 helms
Some archers and reavers
24 phoenix guard
Couple of frost budgies
Also fits in easily, don't get the hate.
I think book of hoeth doesn't need comp because it's over rated but the rest of it is fine.

I know I been banging this drum a long time but that's because I don't see the issue. The main issue with the comp is allowing kairos I wouldn't, but the rest of it allows high elves to compete IMHO. If there are lists you want to take that are struggling to fit in please post them up I'm sure if you think about it just change something and it's good.

Also
Star dragon
Cav bus
4 rbt and frostie fits
That is filthy.

So please can we see the problem with the lists you wish to submit?
And then maybe I'll get the moaning and change stance but right now I don't see it. Please convince me

[sparkytrypod]

I like your lists ian, keep us up to date on call to war if you can...

i guess when people see restrictions they get blinkered/tunnel vision because of them.

i must admit i find your lists refreshing and outside the norm.

also loremaster is a great all comers choice/problem solver.

[Andros123]

When I've used the loremaster as my only caster I usually find him to be not enough really. However alongside a archmage, he his fantastic!

Regarding the comp I think we can still make very decent lists. I don't know how it will work in a team environment, but for a singles tournament, I still see some HE lists that I think can win.
With that said, there is a few thinks in the comp pack that just doesn't make sense IMO. One choice for 1 or more bolt throwers?
Is having 2 bolt throwers considered to be that powerful?

@Finreir
I think you have some exciting lists there. Phoenix guards with a loremaster is great. The loremaster has all the buffs the PG needs in close combat to make them kill most things in the game really. And these guys simply can't be shot to death. I'm very curious about the second list. How does it perform without bolt throwers and instead to frost phoenixes?

Also
Star dragon
Cav bus
4 rbt and frostie fits
That is filthy.

You can't make such a list with the current draft, unless you mean a bus without banner of the world dragon. I played a bit with a list like that, and I found it to be way too skewed for my play style at least. I just don't really find it fun to play.

Now for the current draft I think the following light council is one of the strongest things we can field.

Arcmage lvl. 4 light power stone, TOP
Loremaster w. book of hoeth, gem of sunfire, shield of the merwyrm, biting blade
lvl. 1 light scroll
BSB - reaver bow
20 archers
2x6 silver helm darts
5 reavers
27 white lions w. banner of the world dragon
4 bolt throwers
frost heart

The list can outshoot most other lists, and it is very strong in combat too. Light is also a fantastic lore for white lions since it can help them hit stuff. The magic phase such a list can produce can also be brutal.

Recently I've tried another version of this with a noble on a eagle and high magic instead of light. I just find the combination of high magic and the loremaster amazing. High has tons of ranged threats and the loremaster has everything you need when combat happens.

Archmage lvl. 4 high magic - scroll, TOP
Loremaster book of hoeth, gem of sunfire, shield of the merwyrm, biting blade
BSB reaver bow + pot of strength
Noble on a eagle - golden crown + dragon helm (I try to keep him cheap but survivable. How do you guys run this guy?)
23 archers
2x6 silver helms
5 reavers
26 white lions
3x bolt throwers
frost heart

High magic bring some benefits compared to light magic. First of all you actually have a spell that can help your archers. Second, you have a tool to handle hordes which this list otherwise would struggle against. Lore attribute also gives both your lord level characters a 3+ ward save.

Finally I've considered skipping the bolt throwers in both lists and have 2 frost hearts instead. It makes the list way more aggressive, but I think it will grant more 20-0's than having 4 bolt throwers.

Which one do you like the most?

[finreir]

Sparky I will try and keep you updated mate but I haven't played in 5 months except bout 4-5 games on UB and scgt, so I may misjudged meta or just mess up play so if I finish badly I wouldn't be suprised .

Andros
I meant cav without banner, if with banner it's clearly over by miles.
Personally I think you misjudged the strength of the light council list. I think it's ok, but no better, it's a great on paper list tbh, but in reality top players use line of sight obstacles to surround you, then hold scroll till turn before combat then multi charge the death star of lions dead, I personally have tabled many 27 of lions before they struck or not with much to hit me. IMHO the lion block is a great target to be tabled by someone if you do not have credible fast moving counters. In etc team play most people won't go for smashing it because tbh not to many people take even small risks because they are worried about costing their team points if it's risky, however in a singles etc game or event I reckon it gets smashed 3-4 out of 6 games even with banner.
I think high elf right now in 50% lords are in a strange place, in that even the Phoenix guard I once treasured so highly I consider risky, and tbh the banner of world dragon Death Star is increasingly looking tasty to many armies. I think we are in an era of developing msu lists and not over investing in static options such as light covens or Loremaster and archmage. I could be wrong be in reality so many armies now have deamon prince or chaos Lord or old bloods with OTS and great weapons or whatever that run into a bus of HE infantry and spend the game grinding it off for its 1000 vp. Or just pinning it till the combo charges arrive.
However all that said there are elements of your lists I like, the core set ups look quite nice to me,
As do the rare, but i don't think I would invest so many points in magic tbh. Lore master in your more static lists isn't enough on his own I agree he is with fast armies but not infantry. I think level 4 is great but the light coven of 600 ish points is just wow expensive for me, although I know people made a success of it here in UK and at etc.
Why not try something a little more different tbh, those just look like the same lists we have seen for years, not that it's wrong to do that but they stopped winning things over here when 75% of the field was no longer deamons and woc and even then I never got how woc didn't run it over I have on the 4 occasions I played it by turn 3.

So what do you think to this as an idea from what you have suggested. It's just a little faster IMHO and has loves and characters that can move more freely around the army, it has more movement rather than just the one static block and frostie that can fight.
As I say this is my opinion just trying to help and sorry if I make mistake here
Archmage l4 heavens 4++ scroll
Prince on horse 1+ reroll giant blade potion of fool hardy
Mage high l2 5++ and power stone
Noble eagle, golden crown, dragon helm, ots, lion cloak, lance shield
Noble bsb reaver bow, shield of merwym, iron curse icon, da
15 archers music standard *2
10 helms for
22 lions with banner of dragon
Frost heart
2 rbt.
I think that list has far more synergy speed and is more suited to the scenarios also. But maybe that just me. Hope that helps and I'm sure it will be called shit lol every list I write is
Ian
All the above comments are my opinions and I'm sure people will disagree with a lot of it, I'm more than happy to listen to counter arguments off just please don't quote one sentence and question it, that is not seeing the big picture.

[Andros123]

Thanks for an elaborate answer Finreir.
I think many people overestimate white lions with world banner's fighting abilities. They perform excellent as a bunker that can ditch out high strength attacks, but what many people seem to forget is that they are t3 with a 5+ AS. So naturally they don't last long in combat. However the way the light council list is suppose to play, is to shoot / magic off those things that actually can threaten the white lions or at least soften it up, before combat happens. And the 2x6 silver helm darts never fail to impress me. They can take relatively high volumes of shooting, and they kill all chaff no problem. Also white lions + banner just make for one of the best bunkers in the game really. Only dwellers, final trans and Brets trebs can really hurt them from distance. Things that can reach the bunker fast are flying monsters and cavalry - all which white lions excel at killing.
With that said, I too find it to be on the slow side. It really lacks mobility. That is also why I've experimented with an eagle noble and high magic.
As for your list, there is definitely some interesting components. I like the idea of scaling down the lion block first of all. However, I find the cav prince a bit odd in there. 10 Silver helms can die amazingly fast between magic and shooting, which will make the prince very vulnerable. What role in the army have you planned for him?
I don't understand why you feel lore of heavens solves the presence of these chaos lords, deamon princes and such, but at the same time you don't think a light council would. For me it is the reason why I would take a light council, so I can handle these crazy solo things. Especially now that it seems we have put the era of hordes behind us.
To be fair, I haven't played that much with heaven, but I will definitely give it a go

[finreir]

Thanks for an elaborate answer Finreir.
I think many people overestimate white lions with world banner's fighting abilities. They perform excellent as a bunker that can ditch out high strength attacks, but what many people seem to forget is that they are t3 with a 5+ AS. So naturally they don't last long in combat. However the way the light council list is suppose to play, is to shoot / magic off those things that actually can threaten the white lions or at least soften it up, before combat happens. And the 2x6 silver helm darts never fail to impress me. They can take relatively high volumes of shooting, and they kill all chaff no problem. Also white lions + banner just make for one of the best bunkers in the game really. Only dwellers, final trans and Brets trebs can really hurt them from distance. Things that can reach the bunker fast are flying monsters and cavalry - all which white lions excel at killing.
With that said, I too find it to be on the slow side. It really lacks mobility. That is also why I've experimented with an eagle noble and high magic.
As for your list, there is definitely some interesting components. I like the idea of scaling down the lion block first of all. However, I find the cav prince a bit odd in there. 10 Silver helms can die amazingly fast between magic and shooting, which will make the prince very vulnerable. What role in the army have you planned for him?
I don't understand why you feel lore of heavens solves the presence of these chaos lords, deamon princes and such, but at the same time you don't think a light council would. For me it is the reason why I would take a light council, so I can handle these crazy solo things. Especially now that it seems we have put the era of hordes behind us.
To be fair, I haven't played that much with heaven, but I will definitely give it a go

White lions must be one of the only special units used as a bunker in warhammer, 90% of armies use core. The light coven under etc which is what we are talking about will rarely see a chaos Lord etc to magic missile it due to line of sight restrictions. Also I worry what light does overall other than banishment. I know the spells are ok but they don't synergie well really with the choices of white lions and banner as a combat block, they have great weapon skill and initiative, -1 to hit can be useful as can the 4+ to shoot at them but in experience they will just shoot something else.
I think you are transfixed with the flying monster/character situation when it's far from the only way to kill lions. I'm not saying the banishment coven isn't good my very good friend tom Harris (rogue Eldria) effectively created it or certainly was one of the first users of it, in the last book. But he also no longer likes it as a list tbh.
Ok so my picks, 10 helms and prince why not, the prince is a powerful tool I use him in 95% of my lists on horse or eagle, he is the guy you send to fight 6 Beasts of nurgle or 20 witch elves or whatever else you don't want to fight. If playing chaos and the have a Lord or dp simple put him in the lions if you wish, turns out with harmonic convergence or ice shard on he causes them massive issues, and the ots guy can always counter charge if you like. I prefer heavens because it's not a one trick pony. Harmonic can be used on your shooting, Knights armour saves, or white lions to give them rerolls, ice shard to help in combat, make people fail led tests, or help vs warmachines, curse is good vs killing blow and bent if used with a frostie in a combat, comet is so good vs stand off armies and rush armies it's brilliant with banner you can actually comet the combat you are in , urannons is not terrible (albeit not banishment). But the most important thing is the ranges and hence my wizards have wards I may chose to put them in the lions or the archers and heavens allow that flexibility. The high wizard can buff the lions ward save or stand off depending what spells you roll. The dude on the eagle is important because he can give the Lord, Phoenix a tricksters combat if you wish or just go hunting chaff etc on his own. But the speed of the eagle, frostie, helms combined with the solid nature of lions allows for dynamic play not a one trick pony banishment. Obviously this is all my opinion by the way so if people see it different that is cool.
As normal with etc pack being for team I can see the light council being effective in that roll, but in a singles event using etc I just don't see it and prefer the multiple options and balanced army provides mixing up the threat ranges and types of unit that can engage different problems. Heavens is IMHO right now a meta deck, and also likely in the top 2 or 3 most dynamic decks in the game albeit it misses the I auto win spell
Please let us know how you get on by the way and if you think I talk **** after that's grand just go back to playing what you want to

[Eirik]

White lions must be one of the only special units used as a bunker in warhammer, 90% of armies use core.

I think this line covers a lot of the difficulties of the build. In the edition change the lions got a handful of changes. They became a bit cheaper, their cloaks lost effectiveness against magic, and they lost rerolls to hit. The extra rank, at least, helps make up for this, though it's effectiveness is diminished in very large units where you already got 3 ranks in a horde and you have trouble keeping the unit above 30.

Their biggest 'nerf' however, was that silver helms are now core. Better armor that isn't limited to magic, core points, and not too expensive. The white lions' main advantage is their ability to hold the world dragon banner, but silver helms can simply pack a BSB with the banner and a 2+ armor save. Moreover, they need the banner less and the bunkered characters are far more versatile on horseback, especially if you have silver helm darts they can jump into. Finally, I feel that the helms benefit from magical buffs more.

Of course the lions still find their place in many lists, but usually as a strong block rather than as the centerpiece of the army. I think the army that features them as the most important unit is an Everqueen block of lions with world dragon banner.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Ian,

Just wanted to say your posts gave me a lot of food for thought and I simply wanted to thank you for that! I think you should contribute more often to the forum and I am glad you are more active now. Keep up the great work, mate!

[Motley]

Hi Ian,

Just wanted to say your posts gave me a lot of food for thought and I simply wanted to thank you for that! I think you should contribute more often to the forum and I am glad you are more active now. Keep up the great work, mate!

+1

[finreir]

Hi Ian,

Just wanted to say your posts gave me a lot of food for thought and I simply wanted to thank you for that! I think you should contribute more often to the forum and I am glad you are more active now. Keep up the great work, mate!

Thx mate but I'm just a chump from England who writes slightly whacky lists and does ok with them.
However I will share what happens at call to war good or bad having seen the field and some lists I expect badly.
If it does though I'll share more thoughts about msu or mmu elves as I believe the Death Star approach is not conducive to winning tournament singles play.
Had another thought by the way of running teclis with msu, don't know how strong it would be but like kairos I think he should be flat banned not just comped.
Has any one tried this ?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I think you are selling yourself too short, Ian. Good luck at Call to War! Looking forward to your tales of war

[Curu Olannon]

Good discussion. I'll weigh in later.

I gave Teclis MSU a try back in January, Ian. I found it too dependent on Winds to work reliably. The frail nature of the configuration means that most games went heavily one way or the other depending on who got the best couple of first turns. I had a game vs OK for example where Purple Sun was stopped twice and by T3 I had 10 mournfang, 5 maneaters and a gutstar in my lines. High Elves don't hold up well to that.

All that said it's an interesting configuration

[Baza]

Can anyone confirm if Book of Hoeth is only a power choice if taken on an Archmage and not a Loremaster?

[pk-ng]

Can anyone confirm if Book of Hoeth is only a power choice if taken on an Archmage and not a Loremaster?

it's a pool choice on it's own. regardless on who takes it.

[Andros123]

No. According to the new and final draft it is only a pool choice if taken by an Archmage.

[SpellArcher]

What Andros said.

They changed it on the vote thread on TWF but link is no longer working for me.

[Andros123]

You can find it under the threat furion made which is called something like: "all info in one place".

Book of hoeth on the loremaster is pretty interesting I think. It suddenly makes him able to cast boosted fireball or boosted searing doom, which combined with the gem of sunfire can be very deadly. Especially for wood elves and dragons .

[Curu Olannon]

The Book issue has many people confused: Draft 3 made the Book cost 1 choice regardless of wielder. However the proposed draft, which ended up being the one accepted, changed this to only having the Book cost 1 choice if taken by an Archmage.

As Andros points out, the Book means the Loremaster can suddenly attempt certain spells that you'd otherwise next-to-never try and cast. While this is a big deal to how he plays, I suppose they removed the choice from him because in terms of defense the Book on the Loremaster is not even close to having the Book on an L4. That, and an L4 can really bring some nasty offensive magic of his own with the Book (especially with some of the power lores which are universally nerfed such as Death and Shadow).

[sparkytrypod]

I think we might be seeing a few power scroll archmages instead of book mages.

[Baza]

what about the book of ashur or is this too expensive?

[finreir]

Obviously it's all build dependant and lore dependant but due to the fact we lost everything that supports the magic phase ( standard of sorcery, jewel of dusk etc ) I just don't think it's worth investing masses in magic.
Book if ashur in my opinion is over costed and rated. Book of Hoeth is good and correctly pointed but I never found a list where scroll wasn't better and the lists I have 2 mages I usually run scroll sceptre or scroll and stone.
Any way the interesting bit is lore master it makes him viable and historically when ive run him it's alongside a level 2 high Mage. (I didn't take book but I can see it's good here). I usually took them in 18-24 Phoenix guard and I never gave the wizard an arcane just a ward, however for ETC style negative play I think I'd take scroll and 6++ on her. Makes for a decent combat block tbh and there is no reason the characters also can't sit with archers during the correct game. I do still worry about a 500 point investment in magic however compared to my normal 250.
For my 2 cents by the way some gapingly awful bits of comp this year while we are on subject of magic
Slann harmonic convergence Chanel staff. Level 4 lore master high 2 power choices
Slann naked l4 light 1 choice (that is dog shit comp tbh)
Deamon prince level 4 slanesh 1+as fly all toys extra spell extra Chanel 1 power pool choice.
I don't see any balance in that comp and messing with lizards a little as I do just don't find this viable at all where as in warriors I'm laughing all the way to the bank.
With High elves I think other than book (comp wasnt needed but it's really not end of the world) and comp should start at 3rd repeater rbt as 1 definately isn't a power choice, many decent lists are available without being forced to do one or 2 things with other army books I feel the comp drives you down one route.
So when we were moaning as a HE community this is why I said we shouldn't I can show multiple armies treated much worse.
I also can't see the latest draft if this has become a rule btw so can someone please link it.
All just my opinions but a great discussion guys.
By the way for those interested Call to war is next weekend it's britains etc primer event.
The attendees are
The Dutch etc team (100% my favourite guys in international warhammer Alex Roos and Alex frentzel especially)
The England etc team
Several Welsh Scots and Irish etc teams
A couple of other Johnny foreigners I think are Scandinavians which are likely etc team or close in their countries
And pretty much (except Luke Morton) the majority of the UK top 50 on rankings (not everyone)
There are then some other tourney regulars
It's 6 etc games and 100 player.
I'll be going with my crock of budgies (predict finish 60ish)
I've heard a lot of guys taking kairos plague bearer star fiend star screamers
Others are taking full fat warriors
But there will be some disgusting lists, I'll report yo you guys after next weekend but follow @warhammerevents on Twitter as the TO in the mean time.

[Andros123]

On the Teclis subject in ETC:
I have tried different kinds of builds with him, and I think it all leads towards a MSU shooty kind of style. However, as Curu also mentions, you don't have any reliable way of generating power dices (no banner no forbidden rod), which can hurt the list a lot. I've had decent success with him, but a skilled opponent will just rush your lines and save the scroll for the right time. Interestingly, this MSU style of playing have had me looking more towards the almost forgotten dragon princes. They are actually really good in such lists, as they make for some wonderful countercharges. Also when I read through Swordmasters MSU reports, they really seem to have a fairly huge impact on the game, whereas his groups of swordmasters and white lions contribute little to victory. However, this observation, of course, might be due to my lack of understanding of an MSU approach, but it is just the way it appears though. If you read this Swordmaster - how do you rate the DP's in MSU lists?

Book of Ashur
I too find it not worth its points. But on other hand, I've never really tried it .

I'll very much look forward to see how Call to war went for you Finreir. Do you have you list ready? And if yes, what are you planning on bringing? .
I will be attending a rather small 3 game ETC tournament tomorrow, which I also plan to do a quick writeup on.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Andros123,

Dragon Princes are one of my main hard hitters so they are very important. Their advantage over elite infantry lies in the fact they keep their re-rolls to hit and with I6 they use it pretty much against anything. Only certain characters or special rules may deprive them that ability. S5 and 2A each is enough to make them a threat on their own. With their great speed and good armor they can be a good counter to units that may be a dangerous opponents to infantry. Other cavalry, chariots, monsters, gyrocopters and even some characters would need to be more careful how they move and where they end up as they may be the target for Dragon Princes.

They can be quite good as assassins as they cannot be challenged and may have enough attacks to kill some important characters that are carelessly left in the front rank.

As I run Loremaster his spells can further benefit Dragon Princes in their fights. Wildform is one of the best augments they can get and you can use lore ability too. Miasma and/or Iceshard can further increase the odds into their favor.

They are great in cooperation with Swordmasters/Lions as they can race forward to put some pressure on the enemy early on but don't have to worry about units landing behind their backs as infantry is covering that for them. I have one unit with flaming attacks and that can be a great combination against units such as trolls. Dragon Princes hit first, remove regeneration and then Swordmasters/Lions can hit without worrying about their attacks being deflected.

I don't know, however, how it might work in ETC set up. I assume that in singles events they will be just fine but in team tournaments the risk factor that is high for MSU armies might be something some teams would consider too much.

Hope that helps!

[Baza]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/640 ... sts_v1.pdf

Lists are up for call to war which uses ETC, I think Colin Power's HE list is illegal...

[Irishranger]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/640 ... sts_v1.pdf

Lists are up for call to war which uses ETC, I think Colin Power's HE list is illegal...

Sent you pm on twf but I assure you my list is fine as the book on a loremaster is not a comp point(see posts answering your question 6 posts above).

Top HE is going to be tough with 5 ETC players from Germany, Netherlands, Ireland, England and Scotland but only myself and Chris have similar lists(assuming his wizards are on light and I'm not reading his list completely wrong). We have one flying circus, StarDragon plus lions, Death bus with no banner, Double infantry, DP cav bus, fluff bunny(seaguard and SM?) and 2 light councils. That is some massive amount of variety and I dont think any of them are weak lists( bar the fluff bunny).

Not sure which approach is best( obviously I favor the light council) but this is probably the best chance pre etc to see how the various builds rate. Scenarios will make a huge difference and the fortitude breaks down with Chris legg at 8 on the top end and Liam wordsworth on 4(all in one unit) on the low end. King of the hill should be an excellent scenario for us with only Ian, Jacques and Matt missing a stubborn world dragon unit to sit on the point. Best in mirror goes to either Trev or Johannes as unforging the banner is game breaking(learnt the hard way) and SD/PG match up well.

With 7/8 solid lists I expect HE to be top three in avg score after the weekend and will do my best to help the average along.

[Baza]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/640 ... sts_v1.pdf

Lists are up for call to war which uses ETC, I think Colin Power's HE list is illegal...

Sent you pm on twf but I assure you my list is fine as the book on a loremaster is not a comp point(see posts answering your question 6 posts above).

Top HE is going to be tough with 5 ETC players from Germany, Netherlands, Ireland, England and Scotland but only myself and Chris have similar lists(assuming his wizards are on light and I'm not reading his list completely wrong). We have one flying circus, StarDragon plus lions, Death bus with no banner, Double infantry, DP cav bus, fluff bunny(seaguard and SM?) and 2 light councils. That is some massive amount of variety and I dont think any of them are weak lists( bar the fluff bunny).

Not sure which approach is best( obviously I favor the light council) but this is probably the best chance pre etc to see how the various builds rate. Scenarios will make a huge difference and the fortitude breaks down with Chris legg at 8 on the top end and Liam wordsworth on 4(all in one unit) on the low end. King of the hill should be an excellent scenario for us with only Ian, Jacques and Matt missing a stubborn world dragon unit to sit on the point. Best in mirror goes to either Trev or Johannes as unforging the banner is game breaking(learnt the hard way) and SD/PG match up well.

With 7/8 solid lists I expect HE to be top three in avg score after the weekend and will do my best to help the average along.

@Irishranger, apologies I completely misread the post above re book of Hoeth and I was still looking at draft 3!

[Andros123]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Liam will auto loose blood and glory with that list. At any point during the game, you can't have all your fortitude in one unit - you would then be considered broken.

Very much looking forward to see the results of the list. I predict the light councils to do very well and also Ian's flying list as a dark horse .

[finreir]

Terrified of this field and lists and I drew kairos with the UK master round 1 oh joy

[Curu Olannon]

Ah, yes! Kairos

Does anyone have the results from this event?

[SpellArcher]

http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=127366

See last page. Results not up yet but Ian playing Russ Ward's Daemons (which I faced at London's Burning last weekend) on table 12 round 6.