Etc draft 3 - HEs kicked in the groin

[Aicanor]

Final results: http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=128953
Quite interesting.

[Mentheus of Chrace]

Is there a not-horrible way to paste a table?

Code: Select all

Row Labels	Average of Place	Count of Player
 Bretonnia			5	1
 Skaven				22.3	3
 Daemons of Chaos	36.2	10
 Chaos Dwarfs		38	1
 Warriors of Chaos	40	9
 High Elves			41.5	8
 Lizardmen			43.6	5
 Vampire Counts		44.5	6
 Ogre Kingdoms		46	3
 Wood Elves			46	4
 The Empire			47	7
 Beastmen			49.8	5
 Dwarfs			50	3
 Orcs and Goblins		51	3
 Dark Elves			52.9	13
 Tomb Kings		53.5	7

I have to admit, I find it fascinating how well Demons of Chaos are doing (universally, not just ETC) despite how common High Elves are and how common Banner of the World Dragon is.

[Cealyne]

In all seriousness, banner of the every1 cries does not nullify demons to high elves. At best it makes 1 unit hard to get points from. Meanwhile the demons army is dismantling every other unit that the high elf player has. I used to be on the band wagon of against the banner... Then I went to an uncomped event... Faced demons ( and a few other nasty armies ) and I found out that the banner is only so good. It's greatest quality is the ward against miscasting. There are far too many things that make the banner irrelevant for people to complain about. But that rank over...
Yeah, it doesn't shock me demons are doing so well. They are still a very hard ( and often times broken ) army. With fate weaver at the head of any army, it's terrifying! I unfortunate faced him, blue scribes, all horrors core, tzeentch bsb , screamers and 2 skill cannons two weeks ago. At the end of that game all I had was my bsb, lvl 4 and white lion banner of the world dragon unit left. I managed to get the blue scribes, and unit of horrors and a unit of screamers. Was all bad... Really bad.

[Curu Olannon]

I have to admit, I find it fascinating how well Demons of Chaos are doing (universally, not just ETC) despite how common High Elves are and how common Banner of the World Dragon is.

Common misconception #1: Daemons are not a powerbook.
Common misconception #2: Banner of the World Dragon gives High Elves a massive edge over Daemons.

#1: The Daemon book is crammed full of broken units. The sheer amount of game mechanics they don't care about is insane in its own right, add to that their incredible special rules and over the top units throughout the various sections and you have everything you need for the best army in the game.

#2: The average score at ETC2014, where the Deathtrain was by far the most popular High Elf configuration, was 10.1 points. Hardly what you'd expect in matchups where one side has a massive edge.

[Motley]

I have to admit, I find it fascinating how well Demons of Chaos are doing (universally, not just ETC) despite how common High Elves are and how common Banner of the World Dragon is.

Common misconception #1: Daemons are not a powerbook.
Common misconception #2: Banner of the World Dragon gives High Elves a massive edge over Daemons.

#1: The Daemon book is crammed full of broken units. The sheer amount of game mechanics they don't care about is insane in its own right, add to that their incredible special rules and over the top units throughout the various sections and you have everything you need for the best army in the game.

#2: The average score at ETC2014, where the Deathtrain was by far the most popular High Elf configuration, was 10.1 points. Hardly what you'd expect in matchups where one side has a massive edge.

How is 1) even a common misconception? I am a casual player, but I do vicariously follow what happens in the tournament scene via the interwebs. Looking at tournament results DoC are obviously one of the most, if not most, powerful books. How could anyone think otherwise?

As has been stated the BotWD seems to be a bit overstated too, HE only seem to be mid tier at best and that is with the omg banner.

[SpellArcher]

Having had my WE's tabled twice by Daemons in 8th I just scored the first win.

But only because my opponent brought two monsters I was able to shoot off before running away from the rest.

[finreir]

Phil gave u the results.

Basically had a great weekend

1st game kairos
Lost 14-6 due to anointed and the frostie eating the same pit otherwise 10-10 was gutted also one bolt of change killed general

2nd game empire 6 special characters in a knight death star with a stank
Lost anointed and general to bring down the bus and table him 16-4 to me

3rd game 2 deamon prince and 3++ ward warriors
Won 12-8 lost anointed and general in very unlucky circumstances, left both dos and 1 remaining jugger all on one wound.

4th game dark elves no rbt but shade star triple character double bro locks
Lost 11-9 due to not getting turn 6 in where I was on for 300-400 vp and also lost my Lord and bsb fighting 10 corsairs a wizard and bsb, had that had gone the way it should have would have got 16-18 minimum

5th game wood elves killed everything I could catch lost next to nothing
16-4 for me

6th game doc with pushover bloodthirster, slaneesh dp and skill cannon with 3 horrors
I'll be honest could have won this 14 but knew I was finishing not that well do chucked it all in for fun and lost the anointed leaving the thirster on one wound. So got 10-10 in a blood bath.

Had a great weekend but wretched luck tbh, wasn't awful but should have got 20 more points if luck average. Still confident in the list, not sold on my anointed build neccesArily and maybe the dragon better may be not.
The guy who got best high elf had dragon and lions
Chris legg finished just above me I think he was net list light coven lions.
Was a lot of other high elves I think I was only one without a banner star but check the lists.
Learned that I definately think a big hitter be it eagle, dragon , or munted frostie is probably gonna be in most lists as I think HE need it. Also I feel that rbt are needed for singles event ETC but tbh I don't think I'd take them for a team event as they excel in the bad match ups, well maybe I'd take 2.
Also I think comp slack on a couple of special characters in books and is not tough enough on TK with morghasts.
Not a great finish but didn't disgrace myself against 4 ETC players.
Bring on 9th I think most people now a little jaded with 8th
Oh I forgot
On battle points without painting
Vampires
Dark elfs
And TK
We're the podiums in that order

[finreir]

I have to admit, I find it fascinating how well Demons of Chaos are doing (universally, not just ETC) despite how common High Elves are and how common Banner of the World Dragon is.

Common misconception #1: Daemons are not a powerbook.
Common misconception #2: Banner of the World Dragon gives High Elves a massive edge over Daemons.

#1: The Daemon book is crammed full of broken units. The sheer amount of game mechanics they don't care about is insane in its own right, add to that their incredible special rules and over the top units throughout the various sections and you have everything you need for the best army in the game.

#2: The average score at ETC2014, where the Deathtrain was by far the most popular High Elf configuration, was 10.1 points. Hardly what you'd expect in matchups where one side has a massive edge.

Who misconceived deamons are weak ?
90% of people I know put doc 1 DE 2 in the power books of warhammer.
Unless on forums this is different
And yep high elves are very average which is why I don't play the standard list variants as they are proven average

[SpellArcher]

Tough old field Ian, good result considering.

Interesting to see TK's (and Beastmen) doing OK under the comp.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Were the army lists published somewhere? I am curious about TK and Beastmen in particular.

[sparkytrypod]

hey sm,
link to lists
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/640 ... sts_v1.pdf

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Thanks sparky!

[Andros123]

Thanks for the writeup Ian. It was very interesting to read.

I'm surprised by the dark elf list, that came in second. 29 executioners is rarely seen in ETC. They have the same protection as swordmasters, which is next to nothing. But I guess the other elements in his list could draw a lot of fire. Could be very interesting to hear how it was played.

[SpellArcher]

Yeah, he's got Warlocks, he's got RBT, he's got mobile threat.

[sparkytrypod]

and they have killing blow yes? keeps a lot of other elves away from them I guess.

great targets for shooting though

[Andros123]

With s6 killing blow is not that big of a deal I think.

When I think about how quick my 25 archers die, I find it remarkable that this unit is in one of the more successful builds. They don't even have any magic resistance in this list.

But as you say SA, he got so many other things in that list, that needs attention. 2x10 witch elves is definitely something you need to kill, before they see any meaningful combat. I would be terrified of them fighting my white lions. Sure they will die, but they will kill an awful lot of lions before that.

[sparkytrypod]

the no armour save makes a big deal, killing blow keeps away any 1+ rerollable characters, old bloods, scar vets, high elf princes, other dark elf characters, any characters that rely solely on armour.
would you charge your cav bus in to them? while the bus would win, its a big risk for your characters in a standard bus list.

[Andros123]

Sure for characters it is a big deal and also troops with high armour save. I was just more thinking about our troops in general. All our elite infantry doesn't really care if they have killing blow or not.
So the things that do care about their killing blow, will simply just avoid them due to their superior movement. Killing blow is never bad, but I just don't feel that it is utilized very well on such a unit.

[finreir]

Sure for characters it is a big deal and also troops with high armour save. I was just more thinking about our troops in general. All our elite infantry doesn't really care if they have killing blow or not.
So the things that do care about their killing blow, will simply just avoid them due to their superior movement. Killing blow is never bad, but I just don't feel that it is utilized very well on such a unit.

Impossible to get points out of the list unless you engage them. Huge dark rider units shouldn't get shot off especially in etc, no bunker unit, Lord flies behind hills, final trams is DD and the 4 rbt should get some points off the opposition. Unless they have massive DD threats the only way to win is engage the executioners, obviously 2 sets of soul blight and enchanted blades/glit scales combo nicely with it. I'm assuming and that's all it is a lot of people engaged it just to get points as it was a singles event but then the support from the Dark elves would be a lot faster than from other armies.
Didn't get a chance to speak to tanka about the dark elves and won't now Till July I'm afraid but that is my guessing.

[sparkytrypod]

the bsb in the unit with OTS also, I think its a nice set up.

if you avoid it you spend you time chasing fast cav, bolt throwers or witch elves.

edit, ian explains it better!

[Curu Olannon]

Does anyone know what that Dark Elf list faced? I'd be crying tears of joy if I met something like that compared to the other things I see DE running most of the time.

[sparkytrypod]

dwarfs in game 1, 20-0, dwarf guy finished 24th

Runesmith: General; Shield; Rune Of Fire; Rune Of
Stone; Rune Of The Furnace; 2 Runes Of Spellbreaking
128
Grim Burlokkson 165
Runesmith: Shield; Rune Of Speed; Rune Of Stone; 2
Runes Of Spellbreaking 118
Thane: Great Weapon; Battle Standard; Master Rune Of
Grungni; Strollaz' Rune 191
12 Thunderers: Shields 156
28 Longbeards: Great Weapons; Musician; Standard
Bearer; Rune Of Stoicism 447
Gyrocopter 80
Gyrocopter 80
Gyrocopter 80
Gyrocopter 80
Cannon: Rune Of Forging 145
Cannon: Rune Of Forging; Rune Of Burning
19 Irondrakes: Ironwarden; Brace Of Drakefire Pistols;
Musician; Standard Bearer; Rune Of Stoicism; Rune Of
Sanctuary 365
5 Rangers 70
Organ Gun: Rune Of Accuracy 145

missing rounds 2 and 3.

round 4 against lizards, 13-7, guy finished 14th

Lord Kroak 400
Saurus Oldblood: Armour of Destiny; Dawnstone; The
Other Trickster's Shard; great weapon; Cold One 266
Saurus Oldblood: Arabyan Carpet; Talisman of
Preservation; Charmed Shield; great weapon; light armour
255
Saurus Oldblood: Piranha Blade; Dragonhelm; Potion of
Strength; Opal Amulet; light armour; shield 250
Tetto'eko 185
20 Skink Cohort: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer
130
20 Skink Cohort: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer
130
20 Skink Cohort: Skink Brave; Musician; Standard Bearer
130
10 Skink Skirmishers: lustrian javelin; shield 70
10 Skink Skirmishers: lustrian javelin; shield 70
10 Skink Skirmishers: lustrian javelin; shield 70
29 Temple Guard: Gleaming Pennant; Revered Guardian;
Musician; Standard Bearer 441

round 5, beastmen, 18-2, guy finished 7th

Doombull: Araby Carpet; Talisman Of Preservation
Charmed Shield; Great Weapon; Tzeench 360
Great Bray Shaman: Lv4; Shadow; Fencers Blades;
Dispel Scroll; 295
Beast Lord: Gnarled Hide; Crown Of Command;
Armour Of Destiny; Shield; Tzeench 258
Wargor: Battle Standard; Blackened Plate; Obsidian
Amulet; Shield; Tzeench 172
Slug Tongue: Death; 190
4 X Tuskgor Chariot: Khorne 360 (4x90)
3 X 5 Ungor Skirmishers: Slaanesh 105 (3x35)
2 X 10 Gor: Extra Hand Weapon; Banner; Musician
Khorne 230 (2x115)
35 Bestigor: Full Command; Standard Of Discipline
465
2 X 5 Harpies: 110 (2x55)

round 6, skaven, 9-11, craig Johnson finished 4th

Grey Seer: Skalm; Power Scroll; Dragonbane Gem;
Screaming Bell 510
Warlock Engineer: Brass Orb 65
Chieftain: Standard of Discipline; halberd; Battle Standard
87
Assassin: Weeping Blade; Potion of Strength 170
Warlock Engineer: Dispel Scroll; The Other Trickster's
Shard; Level 1 Wizard; Skaven Spells of Ruin 105
Warlock Engineer: Warp-energy Condenser; Level 1
Wizard; Skaven Spells of Ruin 85
2 Rat Swarms 50
39 Skavenslaves: Pawleader; Musician 84
40 Skavenslaves: Pawleader; Musician 86
40 Skavenslaves: Pawleader; Musician 86
41 Stormvermin: Musician; Standard Bearer; Razor
Standard 347
2 Rat Swarms 50
5 Gutter Runners: slings; Poisoned Attacks 90
Doomwheel 150
Warp Lightning Cannon 90
Warp Lightning Cannon 90
3 x Mortar Fiends 255

[Andros123]

It is of course hard to know, when we haven't seen the actual games, but how the DE player manage to get a 20-0 against that dwarf list, is completely beyond me.

@Curu
Actually I don't find DE to be a hard matchup in ETC for HE. In a world where no really fight that much, their advantage in close combat means less, compared to having an army wide BSB. I also tend to find both our magic and shooting stronger.

[Snake1311]

1st game kairos
Lost 14-6 due to anointed and the frostie eating the same pit otherwise 10-10 was gutted also one bolt of change killed general

This is somewhat dissapointing as a game review, I thought you said you had this down as a bad matchup?

The pit killing the rider was a big swing, however the bolt however has a very decent chance to take off the general with the Kairos rerolls on the d3 (and the subsequent T test afterwards if it doesn't instagib it). I need to look through my notes for more detail, but I don't believe outside of that pit luck was particulary in my favor - there were a few failed overruns, screamers failing to kill a bolt thrower, and the phoenix going apeshit on the horrors, which cost me 120 point of Furies.

Between twitter, texting, face to face and forums I can't tell what your actual predicted result for this game was :/ you seem to flip back and forth between pessimistic and optimistic regarding your list and performance!

[Irishranger]

@Curu
Actually I don't find DE to be a hard matchup in ETC for HE. In a world where no really fight that much, their advantage in close combat means less, compared to having an army wide BSB. I also tend to find both our magic and shooting stronger.

I sorta see the magic but shooting really? They have shades, we have nothing to compare. Also warlocks are kings at running at rbts and killing them, same save as helms, multi attack and fast cav.

Rather disappointed by my performance at the weekend but not overly so. Some bad play(game 5) and missing crucial charges and overruns(game 6 and 2) hurt me. 6 nations list are due in thursday so have little time to make changes.

CTW: 6 games ETC comp
Played TK,TK,Emp, O&G, HE,WE

Game 1 ME
He had one sphinx, one unit of snakes, casket and titan, one block of skellies with 2 princes and some lvl 1s and 2s. very old fashioned list with no real threats. I deployed on the line with lions, frosty behind a hill(s7 banishment), and everything 6" apart for the casket. He deployed on the line with his snakes, chariots and sphinx. lions went for the snakes as I was confident with magic I could go through them in a round, failed charge. frosty blocked the sphinx, reavers went for the chariots, spooned and died. chariots and sphinx hit frosty while he put the snakes into the lions. Lions kicked the shit out of the snakes while frosty lost combat by one, failed 8 rerollable and died. helms flanked the chariots exploded them and overran into the sphinx. He tried to charge the lions with his Skelly block( not sure what crack he was smoking here) and failed forward 6. I countered and killed him in 2 rounds. Mop up after that. 20-0 to HE

Game 2 KoH
This was the best type of TK list. Khalida, 81 bows, flaming bsb, mighty incantations undeath with casket and titan, two big units of morghasts. Very slow player so we only got 5 turns. baited one unit of morghasts with reavers and frosty countered and ground them out. lions pushed up a flank and timewarp meant that he had to feed them the second unit of morghasts. Due to being on a flank not many lions died to shooting. helms moved to pin the bunker. morghasts died and he summoned chaff to block the lions in addition to summoning a terrorghiest. Helms charged chaff, killed them and failed the 7 overrun into the bunker to stop it shooting. Terrorghiest got banished back to where it came from. Lions got shot off, characters bailed into archers who then got shot off. helms pinned the archers but they plus frosty plus loremaster and bsb couldnt hack 80+ models off the centre point. 8-12 loss

Game 3 B&G
Mounted KF deathstar, tank, demis, cannon, 2 HBV. Cannon blew up turn, loremaster decided that looked fun so gave it a try and blew on my turn one doing 3 wounds to the tank. 2 helms killed both volley guns and an archer unit. Tank got bolthrowered to death, demis tried frosty but he held and the lions mopped them up. Couldnt catch the bunker which sat behind a hill in a corner but broke him. 14-6 win with me killing 5 times as much of my own stuff as he did.

Game 4 KoH
Night gobbo poison banner unit with wurrzag, warmachines, 8 trolls and manglers with bunker. A nice hill meant frosty could fly up turn one, be safe from shooting and see the 90+ night goblins. his shooting was harsh turn one but did nothing the rest of the game. Lions pushed forward and wiped everything but only broke the goblins on turn 6(I really struggle to kill big units). Archers who were standing on the centre point got stomped off by foot in his 6.
16-4 win

Game 5 B&G
Mirror match against star dragon and high magic. Played by Johannes Mohr from team german. Big impassable in the centre worried me. My shooting was better in the first two turns then I lost frosty to not realising his bsb was a seahelm. Silly mistake. His dragon went into the lions, it died after killing out all my characters. I didnt realise he was broken by the death of the dragon so reformed wider than needed to kill his bsb and break him back. I probably would have lost any way as I had slightly less lions. ended up with 3 rbts and 4 reavers left
16-4 loss

Game 6 BL
Played Edward de Veries wood elves, sister bunker, 40 trueflight, 10 WW, 15 WR, Lvl4 high and Dark. I pushed lions giving one wr unit(2 models left) a charge, He took it and got my lvl 4 but gave me a combat reform.I was 10" from his sister bunker and rolled a 3 for the charge leaving me 2" short. Frosty ate his entire core and an eagle. Magic didnt do much and my shooting was pretty poor. He eventually if'd unforging on the banner and all the lions died. At the end I had frosty and one reaver left. 17-3 loss.

[Irishranger]

Actually is anyone here going to the 6 nations as player, merc or otherwise?

[sparkytrypod]

Nice write up, are the tomb king arrows not magical?

[Andros123]

I sorta see the magic but shooting really? They have shades, we have nothing to compare. Also warlocks are kings at running at rbts and killing them, same save as helms, multi attack and fast cav.

I don't see that many shades, beside the big shade star list, which I don't consider that strong. Otherwise we outrange them with our 30' vs. their 24' which is a big thing, besides the reaver bow noble also claim 1-2 dark riders per turn. And yes while warlocks are great, we have silver helms in core .

As for you list and the tournament:
First of all, thanks for the writeup. I don't really understand the absence of the sea helm bsb compared to the noble bsb in your list. Especially because you don't have any protection on you lvl. 4.
As far as I can tell from your description of your games, you use the white lions really aggressively. I find that interesting as I see them mostly as a defensive unit, since they just can't take any damage in return. Were you ever surprised of how fast they die, or did they perform their role perfectly?

Also what do you think about using lore of light and banishment in particular? I can see, that in a ETC team tournament it makes sense, because it makes the list better at what it is already good at. But in a singles tournament, I'm not convinced that the lore gives you the necessary tools. A list like this has huge problems with hordes (skaven, orc and goblins, vampires), which lore of light doesn't provide any answer to. Just my opinion at least .

[Andros123]

@sparkytrypod
No their arrows are not magical. However their catapults are.