ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

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HERO
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ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#1 Post by HERO »

So recently, I've been doing some heavy research into comps for my local meta to play. While 2500 regular WHFB is on the table, we're looking for something else to introduce so we can have more balanced games of Warhammer.

I'm just trying to see what you fellas think is the better comp for balanced Warhammer here. I'm personally enjoying 2400 ETC Draft 2 myself, but a lot of the events on the West Coast is using Swedish and some people swear by it.

My biggest problem with Swedish I think is that a lot of the time, it feels like it comps "netlists" or popular lists really hard, not necessarily looking at power level. This, IMO, keeps it away from being balanced warhammer and rather, a popularity contest. An example that I can give is that one of my VC lists hovers at 6.4 while what I think is a weaker HE list, without BotWD comes in at 2.0. I don't even know what to make of this, considering that a tooled up Lv.4 Vampire Lord with LoV cost less than a Lv.4 Shadow Mage with Book. It just doesn't make sense to me sometimes. For funsies, I plugged in my DE list, my DoC and my Skaven list into the system too. My Skaven is a -3.3 (ROFL), DE is a flat 0, and my DoC is a whopping 13.9 because its mono Slaanesh.

In terms of power level, based on what I have faced thus far (and I've played many games with these armies), I would say that my Skaven > DoC = VC > HE > DE, but the Swedish comp is DoC (13.9) > VC (6.4) > HE (2.0) > DE (0) > Skaven (-3.3).

Can anyone with experience in these systems explain this phenomenon that I'm seeing?
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

It was a commonly held view amongst stronger players here that the last version of Swedish was soft on Daemons. Whether the current version changes that I don't know. Swedish is the harder comp, it seems to create a different playing field, whereas ETC seems to result in modified versions of the usual suspects.
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#3 Post by HERO »

SpellArcher wrote:It was a commonly held view amongst stronger players here that the last version of Swedish was soft on Daemons. Whether the current version changes that I don't know. Swedish is the harder comp, it seems to create a different playing field, whereas ETC seems to result in modified versions of the usual suspects.
Well, this just means that my second strongest army here, would be playing against a relatively soft army by Swedish standards.

If the objective of the comp is to promote balanced Warhammer, then I'm not sure if they've succeeded. ETC is miles ahead in that regard, because Swedish (as you said, is a harder comp), seems more like it destroys popular lists instead of addressing overall army power.
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#4 Post by Curu Olannon »

I have little experience with Swedish (none in terms of actually playing) so I might not be the right person to ask, but the way I see it Swedish is a significantly harder comp system that forces you to think differently. As SA said, ETC is largely about modifying the usual suspects a bit.

I suppose it depends on how much comp you prefer. In terms of balance, by nature Swedish -should- be better, but without playtesting experience that's hard to say.
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

I've heard several players say they enjoy using units in Swedish that they otherwise wouldn't. Of course some of us use those units anyway, which is a laugh uncomped!

:)

ETC's focus is rather to balance power levels and reduce randomness.
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#6 Post by Curu Olannon »

SpellArcher wrote: ETC's focus is rather to balance power levels and reduce randomness.
Supposedly, that is.
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#7 Post by finreir »

Curu Olannon wrote:I have little experience with Swedish (none in terms of actually playing) so I might not be the right person to ask, but the way I see it Swedish is a significantly harder comp system that forces you to think differently. As SA said, ETC is largely about modifying the usual suspects a bit.

I suppose it depends on how much comp you prefer. In terms of balance, by nature Swedish -should- be better, but without playtesting experience that's hard to say.
Swedish has always had massive imbalances, for 18 months the comp has been way to soft on deamons and warriors, I don't think any other army has podiumed in UK swedish events. They don't listen to feedback either which makes me very sad, especially as I would love this comp above all others to work but sadly it's quite a way from being right because it's played written and tested in the tiny meta of Sweden. Even good swedish players that visit here have confirmed this.

ETC was last year 7th edition, I was massively in favour of far less comp, which we got and that was great. Then GW made 50/50 lords hereos. Now 25/25 needs to be added to the ETC comp to make it a balanced comp, I don't like what some armies are doing with 50/50 it doesn't feel like comped Warhammer.

So at the moment both are fairly bad unfortunately, I would love swedish to work I really would as its my idea of comp, however I feel panel comps are probably the best comp in the world at the moment albeit they are very rare.
If the 50/50 lords thing in etc was solved boy I'd be happy.
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#8 Post by Giladis »

In personal experience after running one major and three minor SAC tournaments SAC is superior to ETC if you are looking to create a fun event where people focus more on socialising with one another rather than playing to win the game. It should be also noted that the minimum score was set at 10. In a month and a half our Serbian friends in Novi Sad are organising their largest annual tournament and the minimum score has been set to 14. I can't hardly wait to go and face all the varied lists that will come out of it.

I am just unsure what army to take - Dwarfs (no blackpoweder or steampunk stuff) - Warriors (with a Khorne daemon prince no less) - High Elves (with three blocks of Swordmasters) - Vampire Counts (march of the Skeleton Legion) - Tomb Kings (the Ushabti phalanx) \:D/
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#9 Post by HERO »

finreir wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:I have little experience with Swedish (none in terms of actually playing) so I might not be the right person to ask, but the way I see it Swedish is a significantly harder comp system that forces you to think differently. As SA said, ETC is largely about modifying the usual suspects a bit.

I suppose it depends on how much comp you prefer. In terms of balance, by nature Swedish -should- be better, but without playtesting experience that's hard to say.
Swedish has always had massive imbalances, for 18 months the comp has been way to soft on deamons and warriors, I don't think any other army has podiumed in UK swedish events. They don't listen to feedback either which makes me very sad, especially as I would love this comp above all others to work but sadly it's quite a way from being right because it's played written and tested in the tiny meta of Sweden. Even good swedish players that visit here have confirmed this.

ETC was last year 7th edition, I was massively in favour of far less comp, which we got and that was great. Then GW made 50/50 lords hereos. Now 25/25 needs to be added to the ETC comp to make it a balanced comp, I don't like what some armies are doing with 50/50 it doesn't feel like comped Warhammer.

So at the moment both are fairly bad unfortunately, I would love swedish to work I really would as its my idea of comp, however I feel panel comps are probably the best comp in the world at the moment albeit they are very rare.
If the 50/50 lords thing in etc was solved boy I'd be happy.
This is pretty much what I suspected and feared. Thanks for shining some light onto this Ian.

The comp really does promote the fun factor more than army balance, and I think that's apparent through my various attempts at playing the comp and list building.
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#10 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I have no particular preference in terms of composition pack. I have played in no comp, panel comp and Swedish comp so far. I decided to add a few observations as I feel they might add to the bigger picture on Swedish Comp.

First of all it is important to remember what the authors are trying to achieve with it:
Goals
The main goal of the system is to evaluate the strength of an army. There are however also a few secondary goals:
- Promote creativity in list writing
- Award tactical play by:
1. Minimize "rock/paper/scissors" list types
2. Direct the meta game away from play styles that is perceived (by many) as boring (such as very defensive castle play, deathstars, avoidance-point
denial, a few enormous units etc)
What the system does in the first place is simply giving you a number that is supposed to reflect army strength. It will always be debatable if that number reflects the strength properly. But the good thing is that the authors keep updating it frequently.

I cannot comment on the fact if they are listening to the feedback or not but the fact is there are open topics where you can discuss things. It is worth remembering that they might receive quite a substantial number of posts/emails etc. so that some suggestions might simply get lost. I would also be careful with extrapolating the opinion of individuals to the whole situation, even if they come from Sweden.

Another important thing to consider is that Swedish Comp does not create different balance between the armies by default. It depends greatly on how you apply that system to your games/tournament. Let me give you a few examples:

1. Armies need to be in the certain bracket, comp score is applied at the end of the tournament to the overall result together with other soft scores such as painting, sportmanship etc. - in this situation people tend to build their armies as hard as comp score allows and trying to win their games by a larger margin to compensate for the comp score handicap. I can tell you from the experience that this way allows softer armies in the hands of good generals to do much better than their tougher counterparts. However, on the average the harder armies did better.

2. Armies composed from the same bracket but the difference in composition is added in each game to the score of the softer army (sometimes it is also deduced from the score of the tougher army) or the difference is multiplied by 150VP for example and added to the softer army VP from the game. - this results in armies with as high score as possible and in appearance of the armies that "break the comp", in particular when special characters are allowed. Good example is the last CanCon where armies with Kairos and Lord Kroak happened to be really tough nut to crack for some and daemons with Kairos won the event (8 games over 3 days, 120 players). Armies with dragons also did well as war machines tend to be heavily comped and that created good environment for big fliers.

As you can see, these two examples already show completely different effect on the armies people brought and as a consequence on different balance between them. Hence, saying that Swedish comp has bad internal balance is, in my opinion, a simplification.

It definitely promotes creativity in army list building and it is amazing how great variety of forces you can see. Interesting fact is, however, that some themed forces do struggle to meet the requirements if the brackets are set at 9+ level. So I would disagree with the statement that Swedish promotes fun armies (especially when you assume fun = weak). It does a great job in convincing people to bring the models/units/characters they considered tough to use and learn during the event that they are not bad at all.

What is more, Swedish does not prevent no-fun armies to appear (see example of Lord Kroak or Kairos) as there are always players who will try to exploit loop holes or, as I said, "break the system". Fun in the game always depends on the player first and then on his list. If you play a douche then it does not matter how beautiful his army is and how themed its composition looks like. When you play against a gentleman with great sense of humor then even the most horrible match up can be nice experience from which you learn how to do better next time.

Last but not least Swedish Comp does not prevent you from taking anything and is transparent that is a huge advantage for the tournament organizer. I played in panel comp tournaments and the amount of complaints people always receive is discouraging. With Swedish there is no such a thing and the only issue to debate is how it was applied. It is actually very important because simple change in the brackets creates different balance so maybe trying to figure out what should be used for your event is the way to go.

I observed that players who are against Swedish often are those who played a lot in uncomped environment and when they cannot take all of their favorite toys they feel like they cannot build a good army list anymore. So they give up and claim Swedish is not a good system.

Hence, the best approach is not to assume one or the other system is bad or not balanced but to play test it and see how it works. Check what armies people took to different tournaments too. And then decide. Even if you end up with preferring one system over the other it does not mean it is bad.
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#11 Post by finreir »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I have no particular preference in terms of composition pack. I have played in no comp, panel comp and Swedish comp so far. I decided to add a few observations as I feel they might add to the bigger picture on Swedish Comp.

First of all it is important to remember what the authors are trying to achieve with it:
Goals
The main goal of the system is to evaluate the strength of an army. There are however also a few secondary goals:
- Promote creativity in list writing
- Award tactical play by:
1. Minimize "rock/paper/scissors" list types
2. Direct the meta game away from play styles that is perceived (by many) as boring (such as very defensive castle play, deathstars, avoidance-point
denial, a few enormous units etc)
What the system does in the first place is simply giving you a number that is supposed to reflect army strength. It will always be debatable if that number reflects the strength properly. But the good thing is that the authors keep updating it frequently.

I cannot comment on the fact if they are listening to the feedback or not but the fact is there are open topics where you can discuss things. It is worth remembering that they might receive quite a substantial number of posts/emails etc. so that some suggestions might simply get lost. I would also be careful with extrapolating the opinion of individuals to the whole situation, even if they come from Sweden.

Another important thing to consider is that Swedish Comp does not create different balance between the armies by default. It depends greatly on how you apply that system to your games/tournament. Let me give you a few examples:

1. Armies need to be in the certain bracket, comp score is applied at the end of the tournament to the overall result together with other soft scores such as painting, sportmanship etc. - in this situation people tend to build their armies as hard as comp score allows and trying to win their games by a larger margin to compensate for the comp score handicap. I can tell you from the experience that this way allows softer armies in the hands of good generals to do much better than their tougher counterparts. However, on the average the harder armies did better.

2. Armies composed from the same bracket but the difference in composition is added in each game to the score of the softer army (sometimes it is also deduced from the score of the tougher army) or the difference is multiplied by 150VP for example and added to the softer army VP from the game. - this results in armies with as high score as possible and in appearance of the armies that "break the comp", in particular when special characters are allowed. Good example is the last CanCon where armies with Kairos and Lord Kroak happened to be really tough nut to crack for some and daemons with Kairos won the event (8 games over 3 days, 120 players). Armies with dragons also did well as war machines tend to be heavily comped and that created good environment for big fliers.

As you can see, these two examples already show completely different effect on the armies people brought and as a consequence on different balance between them. Hence, saying that Swedish comp has bad internal balance is, in my opinion, a simplification.

It definitely promotes creativity in army list building and it is amazing how great variety of forces you can see. Interesting fact is, however, that some themed forces do struggle to meet the requirements if the brackets are set at 9+ level. So I would disagree with the statement that Swedish promotes fun armies (especially when you assume fun = weak). It does a great job in convincing people to bring the models/units/characters they considered tough to use and learn during the event that they are not bad at all.

What is more, Swedish does not prevent no-fun armies to appear (see example of Lord Kroak or Kairos) as there are always players who will try to exploit loop holes or, as I said, "break the system". Fun in the game always depends on the player first and then on his list. If you play a douche then it does not matter how beautiful his army is and how themed its composition looks like. When you play against a gentleman with great sense of humor then even the most horrible match up can be nice experience from which you learn how to do better next time.

Last but not least Swedish Comp does not prevent you from taking anything and is transparent that is a huge advantage for the tournament organizer. I played in panel comp tournaments and the amount of complaints people always receive is discouraging. With Swedish there is no such a thing and the only issue to debate is how it was applied. It is actually very important because simple change in the brackets creates different balance so maybe trying to figure out what should be used for your event is the way to go.

I observed that players who are against Swedish often are those who played a lot in uncomped environment and when they cannot take all of their favorite toys they feel like they cannot build a good army list anymore. So they give up and claim Swedish is not a good system.

Hence, the best approach is not to assume one or the other system is bad or not balanced but to play test it and see how it works. Check what armies people took to different tournaments too. And then decide. Even if you end up with preferring one system over the other it does not mean it is bad.
Hey swordmaster as I said the goals of swedish are admirable, but it just doesn't do it unless players have a very good mind set to help it along the way like gladidis clearly has. I will post some completely bent filth up here over the next couple of days that I will write for swedish at really low score levels. IE 14-17 which are meant to be cotton wool lists. As previously stated I want swedish to work but at the moment the comp has more holes than Swiss cheese and you don't even have to look for them :(
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#12 Post by SpellArcher »

Swedish is not for me on principle. Not because it stops me taking my OP stuff (don't take it anyway) but because it does away with the balance of the books as is and some of the feel of that. I spent 18 months playing the old WE book but it was an interesting challenge and it forced you to make the most of limited resources and think outside the box. Also, great joy on transitioning to a punchy new book! That is lost in Swedish. That said, I've not played under it, so might change my tune if I did!

:)
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#13 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

@ finreir

I agree that Swedish is not perfect and I have heard it many times that it does not address the problems particular environments face. But I don't think any other composition pack is perfect either. I cannot comment on whether the people responsible for it are of the right mind set (whatever that means), especially in terms of using the feedback other players provide.

What I do know is that there are different kind of people with different attitude. No matter what kind of composition you are going to use there are always going to be these that are willing to exploit the system.

From my experience Swedish comp does encourage a variety of armies. And it seems it is at least one of the things it is designed for. The impression I got from seeing armies that were composed for the systems that base on banning things is that such packs result in decreasing the variety.

@ SpellArcher

I don't understand why do you think Swedish takes away anything. As I tried to explain earlier, it all depends how you apply it.

I also forgot to ask before but I am curious why would people use ETC composition that is designed for the team tournament to the events for singles, especially when it is not even some kind of practice for it?
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#14 Post by Curu Olannon »

I also forgot to ask before but I am curious why would people use ETC composition that is designed for the team tournament to the events for singles, especially when it is not even some kind of practice for it?
Although ETC is always made for the team tournament first, it also bears singles tournaments in mind. The ESC is run every year right before the ETC, for example.

I can't speak for other TO's but for our club we've had one singles event per year running ETC comp. This has always been in April and is thus a good timing for the ETC team to test lists before finalizing the various lists and overall compositions. Basically, the team event has enough gravity to attract attention elsewhere based on the teams' interest in it, which makes it an attractive comp pack for tournaments since you know people will show up. The Swedish Championship has the same attitude I believe, always in May, always ETC comp. This leads to people wanting to participate since it's a very relevant event, which in turn increases its player pool, which in turn makes it more attractive and so on and so forth.

Personally I believe ETC comp has traditionally been the "least of all evils" out there, far from perfect but the best at taking away the worst things without comping things beyond belief (unlike GF for example which is way heavier). This year however I think the comp is way off. Hopefully they'll find a better balance before a final draft is presented.

I'm eager to learn Swedish but it doesn't look likely that I will for the next half year at least. I hear it's good from a lot of different people and although it's relatively heavy (with the common limits at least), it would be interesting to try out.
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#15 Post by SpellArcher »

Because SM, part of the joy of the game for me lies in, at times, facing something like uncomped Dark Elves in all their horrific glory. Under Swedish you either have the compensation of some kind of bonus somewhere, or you face a weakened army book which loses that aspect of the original.

Some army books are just stronger than others, that's part of the game for me. I have a lot of time for the comp philosophy of SCGT for example, which does not seek to balance the army books, instead trying to take the edge off the worst match-ups and prevent non-games.
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#16 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

@ Curu

Your examples seem to support the notion that it makes sense if it is considered as a practice for the main ETC event. I get that, it is self-explanatory.

ESC seems to be a side event and it is a great idea as players can participate in the whole thing in a more active way. I guess it is organized in this way so that those who do not qualified to their team or simply can come along can experience a little bit of ETC flavor.

But there are tournaments that have nothing in common with the above (at least that is my impression) yet they try to use the pack designed for team event. I wonder if that creates different kind of imbalance between the armies if that happens.

@ SpellArcher

I disagree with the notion that armies lose their original aspect if not allowed to bring all the best toys. I would even argue that some of the most powerful builds might not reflect the "spirit of the army" for lack of the better term. :)

The interesting thing is that Swedish comp does not prevent you from taking these things at all. You can always lower the bar and allow armies with lower composition score.

I am also a little confused, on one hand you say you like to face the full might of certain armies but then you say that CGT is good as it prevents players to do so. :? :D
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Re: ETC vs. Swedish Comp preference

#17 Post by SpellArcher »

SM there will always be players, like you and I, who bring units and builds not considered optimal by many, they will always be represented, no matter the comp. Yes Swedish can include very hard armies but then other armies are rewarded for taking less favoured units. The danger is that taking unusual options then becomes a tactical choice re TP's or VP's rather than an attempt to see how well those options work on a level playing field.

While I'm willing to play Uncomped (about half my tournaments are) a fair bit of the time, I would not be the only player at SCGT. Some armies have more nightmare match-ups which result in non-games than elves do. Which is why a little comp to reduce this factor can be a good idea IMHO.
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