Future of (High) Elves army

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#31 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I think GW would have been perfectly fine with the 8th edition, regular FAQ release and campaigns such as ET instead of new editions. We just have to wait and see what they really plan, first question being is there 9th edition at all?
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#32 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

regular FAQ release
Wouldn't THAT have been nice.
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#33 Post by Prince of Spires »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
regular FAQ release
Wouldn't THAT have been nice.
Actually, I would already have been happy with just A FAQ release. Regular would have been a bonus...
RogueSun wrote: A while back I speculated at something similar when they were first starting to release the sub-codices of armies like the Eldar's Iyanden supplement and the Tau's Farsight supplement. I figured they could easily do something similar to the faction/kingdom breakdown of elves, especially with some of the larger kingdoms. For instance, Caledor could very easily have it's own supplement that puts Dragons as a rare choice, but instead maybe you lose access to Phoenix Guard and Bolt Throwers. While a cool concept and something they could easily do in 9th I'm doubting it'll happen. At least until WHFB makes it's way into a larger money making position.
You're thinking on too small a scale for the supplements. They (initially) wouldn't be separate kingdoms. They would simply be updated versions of the current HE / DE / WE books. They can then easily sell you an extra book at very little cost to them. With a chance of selling a some extra models you wouldn't otherwise buy.

Picture this scenario. 9th comes out. One of the first books released is WH: Elves. It basically contains the Khaine elven armylist. Perhaps a few units missing here and there. No need for 3 sets of archers of spearmen for instance. Or maybe things like the HE chariots. A lot of elven players would go out and buy that book.

After that, a WH: High Elves army book is released. It contains all units currently in the HE armybook and some separate special rules to set them apart from the generic elves. A bunch of magical items. Some separate fluff. Most current HE players would get that book as well. So now you have sold twice the amount of armybooks. And, as a bonus, the HE player (who also purchased the generic elves book) might just get some other elven models. Because for instance, he always liked treemen and treekin, but didn't want to start a WE army just for them. And now he can use them without issue.

So, twice the books and more models sold and a happy customer. That's a win-win to me.

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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#34 Post by KelliStClaire »

Don't think it will happen, unless WFB is again very profitable.

Uniting AB and putting all races in more or less one place is perfect way to cut down cost. Instead of 3 ABs they will have one (they save a lot of money on development, artwork, publishing on one hand and on the other hand they have guarantee that a lot of players will buy it). If it;s huge AB like ET book they could put hardcover preorder and hen release softcover according to demand.

Also new players will buy the book instantly as they can make many armies out of it. I don't trust GW much in terms of balance, but maybe they can playtest new rules so synergies between units will encourage players to field almost all-HE armies, WE armies etc.

Also minis - they save a lot of money also, just looking at the current range, if they release Warhammer:Elves as huge two part book + magic cards + wave of models :
- new plastic archers (to make WE-HE archers)
- new plastic cavalery (SH, Glade Riders, Ellyrian Reavers)
- new mage/hero set (to make HE,WE,DE heroes)
- swordmasters/wardancers kit.

= tons of money.

Also it will enable them to release new rules more frequently so WE or Bretonia players wouldn't have to wait decades for new ABs being a part of huge AB.
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#35 Post by Andrew_uk »

I really don't think Fantasy would be losing money if they had got the business model right and created a stable game in the first place.

For me the first BIG mistake was with the launch of LotR. I've heard many people argue it's a better game but effectively all they were doing is dividing any would be fantasy players into 2 competing gaming systems. What they could have done was use the LotR films as a launch pad for some renewed interest into WHFB - maybe even done some new characters/units as limited editions within the existing armies.

The second BIG mistake was 8th. If you look at the demographics of who plays WHFB and who plays 40k - the average age is higher amongst fantasy players. GW really makes its money though vs the younger audience so it decided to attempt to dumb down WHFB with 8th and took a lot of the skill out of the game - the result of this wasn't that they brought the average age down, just that they really annoyed their traditional fanbase.

What long running players want is a stable set of rules, good rules, good models and enough new releases within that framework that you have to keep rethinking. What we are given is a complete paradigm shift every year or so which isn't stable and is done primarily because GW don't want to admit they haven't yet found a balance which works. The models are great, yes and we'll buy them up no problem - but with the prices going up as steeply as they are people are looking less at buying in store and more at buying online.

Now with all these releases GW are making - we've had a higher frequency of new books throughout 8th than through any other period before - with all these new books there are costs in rewriting the rules, redesigning the models, painting them up ready for promotions, getting everything into print... etc. They amount to huge up front costs each time a new book comes out so honestly a stable system is actually good news for GW too.

I would much rather see a stable set of army books (maybe with a re-release once a decade), a stable central rulebook which requires skill and tactics in order to outplay your opponent (maybe with a re-release once a decade) and then supplements released much more frequently. These fulfill GWs need to release new models for people to buy, they fulfill our need to have a shift in our thinking every few months but it becomes a stable gaming system / a hobby / something you can plan for / something you can buy into.
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#36 Post by Duranthalis »

Andrew_uk wrote:I really don't think Fantasy would be losing money if they had got the business model right and created a stable game in the first place.

For me the first BIG mistake was with the launch of LotR. I've heard many people argue it's a better game but effectively all they were doing is dividing any would be fantasy players into 2 competing gaming systems. What they could have done was use the LotR films as a launch pad for some renewed interest into WHFB - maybe even done some new characters/units as limited editions within the existing armies.

The second BIG mistake was 8th. If you look at the demographics of who plays WHFB and who plays 40k - the average age is higher amongst fantasy players. GW really makes its money though vs the younger audience so it decided to attempt to dumb down WHFB with 8th and took a lot of the skill out of the game - the result of this wasn't that they brought the average age down, just that they really annoyed their traditional fanbase.

What long running players want is a stable set of rules, good rules, good models and enough new releases within that framework that you have to keep rethinking. What we are given is a complete paradigm shift every year or so which isn't stable and is done primarily because GW don't want to admit they haven't yet found a balance which works. The models are great, yes and we'll buy them up no problem - but with the prices going up as steeply as they are people are looking less at buying in store and more at buying online.

Now with all these releases GW are making - we've had a higher frequency of new books throughout 8th than through any other period before - with all these new books there are costs in rewriting the rules, redesigning the models, painting them up ready for promotions, getting everything into print... etc. They amount to huge up front costs each time a new book comes out so honestly a stable system is actually good news for GW too.

I would much rather see a stable set of army books (maybe with a re-release once a decade), a stable central rulebook which requires skill and tactics in order to outplay your opponent (maybe with a re-release once a decade) and then supplements released much more frequently. These fulfill GWs need to release new models for people to buy, they fulfill our need to have a shift in our thinking every few months but it becomes a stable gaming system / a hobby / something you can plan for / something you can buy into.
The problem with releasing stuff once a decade lies primarily in the attrition rate. In WH40K, my love was always with the Orks. In 1999 we had a codex ... and then again in 2008 (and now in 2014). In that 9 year gap of waiting, I grew so frustrated at the way that my army just fell by the wayside that I started pursuing Space Marines (releases in '98, '05, '08, and '13) and branching into Fantasy. The space marines are the "most stable" in 40K, which is their "most stable" rules set released, yet they're releasing new versions fairly often in order to keep people hooked.

As much as I love WHFB and WH40K, it's definitely not for the "stability" that GW provides. It's definitely not for the clarity of the rules, or the ease of play. I love the models, I love the world that they've created, and I can deal with the changes that come up, even if it means that I play an older version and ignore recent changes.

Screaming about how GW is "ruining" the game system/world that they created and are applying their creative license to is like getting upset because George R.R. Martin keeps killing people in Game of Thrones...
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#37 Post by finreir »

My belief is the game has lost some £ in the last couple of years, so they will cut the production costs but let the movie roll by using the same set for more scenes(shared AB for more races)
In addition of course there will be 9th GW is a Plc, the best way to make money is a new edition (may be with similar rules :roll:)
All I'm hoping is they don't press self destruct like they did with 40k
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#38 Post by Duranthalis »

Rumor from my local GW manager says 2015 will bring a lot of love for fantasy
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#39 Post by Lord Anathir »

I've jumped ship, even the GW loyalist that I am.

I've spoken very very harshly of warmachine in the past (pre end times) but I'm giving it a go now.

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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#40 Post by Lord Anathir »

Duranthalis wrote:Rumor from my local GW manager says 2015 will bring a lot of love for fantasy
But from whom? A lot of different kinds of players/hobbyists buy GW product. I just dont trust them to make any decision for the good of the game anymore.
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#41 Post by Prince of Spires »

Lord Anathir wrote:
Duranthalis wrote:Rumor from my local GW manager says 2015 will bring a lot of love for fantasy
But from whom? A lot of different kinds of players/hobbyists buy GW product. I just dont trust them to make any decision for the good of the game anymore.
I'm actually more curious why fantasy would need more love then it is getting now... Over the past year or two, we have regular army book releases, a whole bunch of models to go with them. And the biggest campaign / fluff update of the past several years. Love it or hate it, but The End Times is a serious amount of love fantasy is getting. 5 whole campaign books with over a 1000 pages of fluff and rules and a whole bunch of new models. Not sure what more we can ask for love wise.

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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#42 Post by Luna Guardian »

Prince of Spires wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:
Duranthalis wrote:Rumor from my local GW manager says 2015 will bring a lot of love for fantasy
But from whom? A lot of different kinds of players/hobbyists buy GW product. I just dont trust them to make any decision for the good of the game anymore.
I'm actually more curious why fantasy would need more love then it is getting now... Over the past year or two, we have regular army book releases, a whole bunch of models to go with them. And the biggest campaign / fluff update of the past several years. Love it or hate it, but The End Times is a serious amount of love fantasy is getting. 5 whole campaign books with over a 1000 pages of fluff and rules and a whole bunch of new models. Not sure what more we can ask for love wise.

Rod
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#43 Post by finreir »

Prince of Spires wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:
Duranthalis wrote:Rumor from my local GW manager says 2015 will bring a lot of love for fantasy
But from whom? A lot of different kinds of players/hobbyists buy GW product. I just dont trust them to make any decision for the good of the game anymore.
I'm actually more curious why fantasy would need more love then it is getting now... Over the past year or two, we have regular army book releases, a whole bunch of models to go with them. And the biggest campaign / fluff update of the past several years. Love it or hate it, but The End Times is a serious amount of love fantasy is getting. 5 whole campaign books with over a 1000 pages of fluff and rules and a whole bunch of new models. Not sure what more we can ask for love wise.

Rod
I'm with you rod, fantasy for me is in a golden age. We will be lucky to see this much love again ever so savour 2013,14,15 because I think it will be 202* before it sees nearly this much attention again
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#44 Post by Duranthalis »

Prince of Spires wrote:
Lord Anathir wrote:
Duranthalis wrote:Rumor from my local GW manager says 2015 will bring a lot of love for fantasy
But from whom? A lot of different kinds of players/hobbyists buy GW product. I just dont trust them to make any decision for the good of the game anymore.
I'm actually more curious why fantasy would need more love then it is getting now... Over the past year or two, we have regular army book releases, a whole bunch of models to go with them. And the biggest campaign / fluff update of the past several years. Love it or hate it, but The End Times is a serious amount of love fantasy is getting. 5 whole campaign books with over a 1000 pages of fluff and rules and a whole bunch of new models. Not sure what more we can ask for love wise.

Rod
And we have yet to see updated ABs for Bretonnia, Beastmen, Skaven ... plus any new models they decide to throw towards them. Resin or plastic kit updates. He mentioned 9th edition was on the horizon ... which may be good or bad.

When compared to WH40K, there's more room for expanding fantasy. The question boils down to specifics ... and we know how impossible it is to get confirmed leaks on that.
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#45 Post by John Rainbow »

Prince of Spires wrote:I'm actually more curious why fantasy would need more love then it is getting now... Over the past year or two, we have regular army book releases, a whole bunch of models to go with them. And the biggest campaign / fluff update of the past several years. Love it or hate it, but The End Times is a serious amount of love fantasy is getting. 5 whole campaign books with over a 1000 pages of fluff and rules and a whole bunch of new models. Not sure what more we can ask for love wise.

Rod
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#46 Post by wisetiger7 »

Prince of Spires wrote:Regarding the future of the elven armies. First off, I think it's entirely possible that 9th will retcon the entire ET fluff away and reset to pre-ET fluff. Which of course gives the option of re-releasing the ET fluff for 9th edition.
Maybe Teclis, with his Wind-of-Light-infused staff, just casts Super Birona's Timewarp and rewinds history to before the End Times... [-o<
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#47 Post by RE.Lee »

A Golden Age indeed, its been a great year and its seems there's more to come!

As for the future of elves, I think everything will stay the same - they would need to change the entire range of miniatures to put them into a real single army. Mixing different units is something that is likely happen in 9th edition (and I welcome it, for story-telling reasons) but permanently reducing the richness of the Warhammer world (one of its selling points) would be odd.
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#48 Post by Pulstar »

And we have yet to see updated ABs for Bretonnia, Beastmen, Skaven ... plus any new models they decide to throw towards them. Resin or plastic kit updates. He mentioned 9th edition was on the horizon ... which may be good or bad.
Bretonnia is gone. The Lady of the Lake was an elf goddess who is no more. The massive infighting and the undead in the Nagash book pretty much left it in ruins. They will band together with the remains of the empire.

Beastmen, as a stand alone playable race, also gone. Dislodged by an influx of elves. They will still be part of a chaos horde, but nothing more than that.

Skaven is the next EoT book which should be out in a few weeks.

I love what they are doing with EoT. I can't wait to see where the Lizardmen land.
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#49 Post by Makiwara »

They'll land in the Wildwood, replace the forest spirits and the new combined elf army will have lizardmen servants, calling it now! :lol:
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Re: Future of (High) Elves army

#50 Post by draxynnic »

The elves only smashed the beastmen that were attacking Athel Loren, which is the one forest in the Old World they'd never really gained a foothold in. Glottkin probably depleted their numbers in the Empire, but I expect that they're still quite strong in the forests of the Empire and northern Bretonnia. Not to mention that according to the fluff there are beastmen EVERYWHERE (except Ulthuan and possibly Lustria and the Southlands), although they take different forms and the Beastmen list may only properly apply to Old World beastmen.
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