All this has happened before: Khaine Analysis [BIG SPOILERS]

[Curu Olannon]

First of all: If you have not read Warhammer: Khaine, I strongly suggest that you do not read the following and instead wait until you´ve read the book.

"All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again."

First, a little detour. For those of you who have seen the Battlestar Galactica, this is a familiar quote. Without spoiling too much of that series, the TL;DR version is that events are re-occurying in iterations, taking various forms each time. The basic idea is that history is bound to repeat itself.

Warhammer: Khaine is largely based upon this idea, with two main, resulting outcomes that are, as of yet, still not clear to us. We can however infer some of their possibilities. First of all, let´s look at the War in Heaven in the Warhammer universe:

Disputes Among the Gods

TL;DR version - Khaine is envious of Kurnous because the latter has the favour of Isha. Hekarti and Atharti (goddesses of dark magic/pleasure & indulgence, respectively, as well as sisters) both want Khaine. Khaine kills Kurnous to get with Isha, but Isha does not want this. Hekarti and Atharti try to soothe him, but in their mad lust for Khaine they destroy eachother. Vaul trades himself to be Khaine´s slave to do with as he pleases so Isha will be freed. This is a necessity because Vaul will forge the weapons Khaine needs to fight a war (see below).

Asuryan creates the Elves and is the lord of the gods. Isha is the mother of the Elves. Lileath is the goddess of fate. These 3 are vital players in this story. To understand their situation and influence over the Elves, one must realize the importance of the battle above. First of all, Asuryan as the lord of the gods let this happen. He did not intervene and he should, perhaps, have been more strict towards Khaine in the first place, not letting him run wild as he has. Isha, the mother of the Elves, loses her husbands and is subsequently enslaved, only to be freed by Vaul´s sacrifice. Lileath, the goddess of fate, likely knew what Khaine did would happen prior to it actually happening. As such, she could´ve warned the other. Being the mother of Isha, it´s strange that she didn´t do so.

The Flaw of Khaine

Khaine is tricked into engaging with the Chaos Gods in all-out war. He loses this war and as a result, the Elven gods are forced to escape immortality, binding themselves to mortal forms. At the start of the End Times, it is my understanding that all the elven pantheons are alive and kicking in one shape or another. Kurnous (how was he resurrected? I never got this part) is Orion, Isha is Ariel, the rest are less obvious but it is revealed that Araloth is Asuryan, Tyrion is Khaine and Ladrielle is the Lady of the Lake (later to be merged with Isha and Allarielle to eventually become the Avatar of Life).

Khaine is utterly without reason. He is much like Khorne, all he knows is battle, all he wants is battle. It is strange indeed how the Elves are drawn to Khaine, in the book it is revealed that, over time, Elves become little more than zombies: Given enough time in the presence of Khaine (= Tyrion, for the time being), every single elf will succumb to the mad bloodlust of battle. Losing all their senses, they will run at their enemies (or eachother, in the lack of such) and do anything to draw blood. It kind of reminds me of the Rage virus in the "28" series. Frankly, I´d rather take Khorne where the champions at least appear to remain sane to a degree. Khaine is utter madness and poison to the Elves.

The Recurring Events

Khaine killed Kurnous to take Isha. 2 women battled over him in turn and they killed eachother. The creator God created a race full of flaws. Why? He appears to be flawed himself, that is my best guess and it seems to be confirmed by this story. Lileath foresees events but does not appear to want to change them. Isha does what she can to save her children: Vaul sacrifices everything for her so she can do this.

Fast forward to Warhammer: Khaine. Tyrion (aka Khaine) kills Orion (aka Kurnous). Vaul´s incarnation delays him so he cannot take Allarielle (aka Isha). Hellebron and Morathi (aka Hekarti and Atharti, respectively) battle over Tyrion. They both die. Araloth is shown to be the only hope (according to Lileath) for the Elves´ survival, basically he is Asuryan incarnate. Though Araloth displays a number of desirable traits, he is not without his flaws. This in turn explains the Great Lie: Asuryan wanting Malekith to become the leader of the Elves all along.

The war in heaven is exactly what´s being re-enacted on Ulthuan.

The Elven Gods lost to Chaos when Khaine was tricked into battle. This cost them their immortality and, seemingly, their ability to help the Elves. If I understand it correctly, this is when the Old Ones fell as well and Aenarion´s storyline begins. His life and events as well mimic the ones above also, but it´s not so clear-cut so this might be coincidental (or I might be missing something). Lileath, then like now, did nothing to prevent this. She is simply going along with the events, knowing full well that this will all "restart", eventually: As she tells Araloth, if the remaining Elves do what they can, their future will be secured (for now), seeing as the Chaos Gods will take milennia to catch up with the new realm Araloth will be creating. This also explain why the billion Elf souls are lost to Slaanesh as the Vortex is unmade: The Elven Gods never intended for these to be saved in the first place. They knew they would be lost, yet did nothing.

Lileath seems content, or perhaps just resigned, with the fact that this is how things are. At the end of the book, she even says explicitly: "My concern is not with the dead, but with the continuation of the living" (or something like that, I don´t have the book with me at the moment). As another poster remarked on this forum: "So everything will just go in circles? That´s just sad". Yes, yes it is. It is a well known thing in sci-fi and fantasy though. The Matrix and Battlestar Galactica are excellent examples:

Fate?

What makes these examples interesting is because of their evolution after these facts have been revealed. In the Matrix, we are shown that Neo is supposed to sacrifice Trinity and himself to save the human race: Restart it all. This is what´s happened before, many times, but Neo chooses insanity (and with it, hope): He goes against the Architect and stubbornly believes he can change things, despite being fully aware of the fact that he is not "the one" (well technically he is, but the prophecy of the one as he knew it was a lie, another prison for the human minds). He makes this choice in the second film, but the reasoning is found early in the first film:

Morpheus: "Do you believe in fate, Neo?"
Neo: "No"
Morpheus: "Why not?"
Neo: "Because I don´t like the thought that I´m not in control of my own life"

Lileath, like the Architect, seems content with this ever-recurring cycle. Despite its horrible costs and implications, none of them seem to be concerned with anything but maintaining status quo.

In Battlestar Galactica, a similar story unfolds. However the end is not conclusive as the Matrix (Neo´s insane gamble pays off, against all odds), but the series ends on a hopeful note as evidenced by Gaius Baltar and Caprica Six in the final scene.

Anyway, let´s move back to our world and I´ll explain why I find these examples to be so interesting.

Enter Teclis

Teclis, like Neo, is not content with status quo. He believes it is possible to challenge the impossible, to take a fight that´s never been taken before. His master plan, aided by Lileath (probably because it doesn´t interfere with her concern for securing the future), is not about combating Chaos on Ulthuan, Naggaroth, The Old World or anywhere else: His plan is about taking the fight to the Realm of Chaos: To challenge the Chaos Gods themselves. To do this, he intends to use the very stuff that makes up Chaos - the Winds of Magic - bind it to his will and create Champions from what´s anathema to Chaos - mortal creatures - and turn these Champions against the Chaos Gods in a fight.

The sacrifices required to do this are huge. Tyrion´s daughter is likely the loss most keenly felt as she´s close to Teclis, yet her death is dwarfed by the destruction of the vortex and subsequent release of literally billions of souls, all being consumed by Slaanesh. It´s a huge gamble, but the question is whether this could have been prevented anyway. The kinslaying taking place on Ulthuan is, arguably, unavoidable in the first place, so we´ll ignore this for the time being.

So Teclis binds Death to Nagash, Shadow to Malekith, Life to Allarielle, Heavens to an unknown entity in the Empire (my guess: Karl Franz. Compare the innate abilities for him and Malekith/Allarielle) and Light to his staff (my guess: Himself). Fire, Metal and Beasts escape with unknown consequences apart from severely ravaging Ulthuan. The idea is for these champions to directly challenge the Chaos Gods. Anything else is futile, to be honest, as Chaos will never be destroyed while these exist. The history of the Warhammer universe shows us just that: No matter how badly the Empire, Dwarfs and Elves defeat Chaos, they return. It is always a matter of time.

As a final analogy, Allarielle, like Isha, does what she can for the Elves despite personal preferences. At this particular point in time, that means marrying Malekith. The Elves follow her and her alone, but are (naturally) wary of Malekith, some even in direct opposition of his rule. Strengthening his position is of paramount importance for Teclis´ plan to work, whatever it may be or how he intends for it to unfold.

I see Warhammer: Khaine as a tragic story, but also a story filled with hope. Khaine started it all, he is the main reason this problem existed in the first place. If his failing war vs Chaos is eventually shown to be the reason why/how Chaos could defeat the Old Ones and enter the world, I won´t be surprised. His every flaw and fault are shown through Tyrion, one of the noblest of Elves driven insane by his presence. The other gods are most certainly flawed too, personally I am most pissed at Lileath actually for not interfering when she knows the future and for giving up on improving the situation, but at least her saving grace is that she is willing to aid Teclis in his plan (though she appears not to have any faith in it, at least not much). However Khaine started it all, he hasn´t done anything to help the Elves and he can´t help himself. He is poison and he is what clouds the Elves´ to the point where they become self destructive, as elaborated clearly in Aenarion´s and Tyrion´s storylines. He might not be evil in the same way Chaos is, it appears more to be his natural instinct to always fight (much like some breeds of dogs) for the sake of fighting than actually killing because he enjoys it (unlike Chaos), which in turn puts the blame on the other gods, mainly Asuryan for being their leader and failing to restrain him and Lileath for knowing what comes to pass but doing nothing to prevent or alter it.

I see four possible end games here:
- Teclis succeeds and the world is freed of Chaos
- Araloth succeeds, the old world falls and a new realm is created where he is the Creator God. The new realm has X millenia of peace before Chaos can catch up with it, the X depending on how well the mortals perform vs Chaos in the Old World
- Nobody succeeds and Chaos kill everything
- Some Deus Ex Machina thing intervenes and status quo in the current realm is, more or less, maintained

We have one very positive outcome, one very negative outcome and one middle road. The middle road, while tragic enough in its own right, is miles better than the third point (much like "Plan B" in Interstellar) and I fear that this is what GW will opt for with history repeating itself (I suppose all of you as well are cheering for Teclis with me at this point). This also allows them to truly shake things up without changing status quo too much: A new "ulthuan" and a new "old world" with Elves and Humans can happily exist in this new realm. They could also go with the 4th point, which would just be lame (I struggle to see how this can be written well).

I see this as the main storyline of the book, which also explains the title very well (whereas Warhammer: Asuryan would perhaps be more fitting if they wanted to focus on the "micro level" and the great lie). What are your thoughts on the matter?

[aurynn]

Thank you, Curu, for this. Very informative indeed.

If I may add something to Lileath... I am not convinced that being a god of fate gives you any power to influence it. It might actually be very restrictive as you might be in the position of knowing the fate and being charged to make sure it actually happens. It might also be the only thing you perceive as "possible". And sharing the fate with anyone... that might be troublesome too. If Teclis somehow persuaded Lileath to help him despite her not-believing... I call that a feat...

Binding the Light to his staff (of Lileath) might have yet some significance - he might give the staff to someone and transferring the Wind of Light elsewhere. Why wouldnt he bind it to himself personally otherwise?

[Curu Olannon]

Good point. I don´t know exactly what powers you have and what you don´t have when you´re a god of fate, however from my point of view not even talking to Asuryan seems like resignation.

“A person may cause evil to others not only by his actions but by his inaction, and in either case he is justly accountable to them for the injury.”

I agree whole heartedly.

[aurynn]

Resignation... or design... the other side of knowing the fates might be the absolute knowledge of the possible outcomes. Maybe Lileath is the Oracle... not the Architect if I keep the Matrix analogy. Maybe she wants to change the status quo, but is very much aware how even a single word could change what will pass in the next cycle...

[Dark Reaper]

Nice summary!

I think your theory of a rebirth of sorts is especially evocative. We see that the godess of the underworld is being reborn into another elf during the course of the story as well as your examples. A common theme in literature is a rebirth in water, maybe as a metaphor for baptism, we can for example see it in Charles Dickens' "Our Mutual Friend" where the protagonist takes a new identity after nearly drowning. This is why I think it will be interesting to see what happens to Teclis after his perhaps greatly exagerated demise, or indeed all of the Elves, seeing as Ulthuan has sunk beneath the ocean.

As for fate, fantasy writers usually love to put a spin on prophecies and pre-determined fates. I am in no way comparing GW writers to George Martin, but we have seen how he usually tricks his readers and mocks our pre-conceived ideas by changing stuff up, I would not be surprised if GW would do something of the same. I haven't read the whole "Curse of Khaine" yet, but I find it interesting that Malekith tells Kouran that he is one of the few people who he is not afraid of, due to the fact that mostly everyone else probably wants to kill him. He is also bothered by a prophecy where he thinks that he will be toppled from his throne by a male sorcerer. Perhaps the notion of fate is more played up by the Elves than it really should be?

I can't wait to see how this will continue and I really hope GW has a plan for how to continue the story of the Elves? How will Malekith fare as the ruler of a combined elven kingdom? He no longer has his mother (which is probably a good thing), his most trusted general or Teclis, whom he seemed to be willing to take advice from. On the other hand, he is pretty much the only leader the elves have. Imrik is too brash and there is barely no leadership left for the Wood Elves.

This is going to be exciting!

[Avenant]

i think you are giving GW writers WAY too much credit.

it's just coincidences and human brain trying to find patterns, with a bit of tropes reusing.

hi all.

[Nightwing]

I like your comparison between the war in heaven and what we currently have happening. I see a problem though, tyrion draws the widowmaker, thus becoming khaine, bacause teclis is trying to avoid this recurring cycle. If teclis leaves alone we don't end up with this khaine led, unwinnable war. Or do I have something wrong?

[Tech less]

@curu

Is this ( not the bits with your analogies and speculations) actually stated in warhammer: khaine regards the elven pantheon or anoher source ( liber chaotica perhaps)?

Specifically the discription of khaine as mindless raging beast? This is counter to pretty much everything about him i have seen written prior , he is also the god of murder ( now murder can be spur of the moment or it can be carefully and skillfully planned , that second subletly is inconsistent with a roid rage khaine hell hellebron herself would never have lasted through 6000yrs of slaughter if this was even internally consistent),
as well has posessing martial honour, this 2nd distinction in particlular is why it has largely been argued that khain is largely distinct enough not to be khorne . How can a permanently raging god be lucid and sane enough to plot cold blooded murder, act with large degrees of martial honour and infact envy another god? Yes he has been associated with anger and incandescent rage but whilst in and at the heat of battle. This depiction of him as a roid nut larger than khorne is just so comically ridiculous even you yourself have to comment on khorne being better.

As to elves becoming little more then zombies in his service how does this even begin to square up with the 6000 years of dark elf fluff and history in naggoroth - even the witch elves themselves have to with the aid of rituals and drugs work themselves up into a killing frenzy , they however wind down afterwards otherwise they would simply be expendable cannon fodder and worse pretty much a once off force and they have never really been described that way.
Lastly the type of roid khaine described would simply just keep killing the elven god till there was nothing, he would have no time for deals with vaul basically no sublety.

As to your speculation on khaine being responsible for the fall , wouldn't that responsibilty fall at the door of those that tricked him into starting the war ?

By the way i have no issues with the ' history repeats' itself theme. In fact i always thought that the tyrion and teclis characters were in some way written to perpetuate this theme in an elven context along the lines of one or both defeating malekith and at this point of victory over the reason for the schism something causes them to have a split ( one becoming dark) and hence split the race again.

[aurynn]

This is counter to pretty much everything about him i have seen written prior

It would not be the first time when people see their god differently than he actually is. Or worshipping an idea while the worship goes somewhere they would not want it to go if they knew... Actually we dont have to go too far - Bretonnians. The favourites of Khorne... He loves them, because they live for war, they worship war, strife and conflict. They might openly worship the Lady, but their actions in fact give Khorne what he wants in a very pure form with honour and valour... - His words.

But I dont think this actually is the case. If you consider the fact the curse of Khaine actually drives its "recipients" crazy. As in really crazy. And worship of Khaine by DE is a lot more crazy than anything Khorne has in his arsenal, I have to conclude and agree that Khaine is nuts compared to Khorne. Khorne is war and bloodlust, but also martial honour and duty. I dont recall reading anything like that about Khaine anywhere. His devotees worship the act of killing. Not the act of comparing strengths. Killing with planning and skill in assassination is still killing and elevates the fact that there was no honour or valour in the act.

[Curu Olannon]

Lots of replies here, let me try to address them in turn:

aurynn - From the book, I don´t get a feeling that Lileath is anything like the Oracle. Perhaps I need to read more background on her, but in Warhammer: Khaine, she really does appear to be indifferent to anything but Araloth and his travel to the other realm. Again though, hard to tell.

Dark Reaper - Didn´t consider the rebirth in water. What happens next is truly exciting. Malekith indeed is a wild card in all of this. Could he be Loec in mortal form, somehow? I have tried to look up background on Loec, perhaps he is somehow connected to Hekarti, but I can´t find anything conclusive. Curse of Khaine is looking to be a must-read! What Malekith will do now without neither Kouran, Teclis or Morathi around is certainly up in the air. He hasn´t been this alone for thousands of years - if ever! Potentially Allarielle could play a role here as well. Imrik too, he´s a pretty accomplished general as far as I can tell.

Avenant - I think you are giving GW writers way too little credit Thorpe didn´t write anything in this book either, for that matter.

Nightwing - Tyrion doesn´t become Khaine, just his Avatar. Teclis is trying to save the world from Chaos. Though we can, from an omniscient point of view, point out that the recurring cycle is a fact here, the subjects in the story can´t know this. What Teclis did or didn´t do at the very end before the Isle of the Dead was consumed by the water is unknown to us all at this point in time.

Tech less - You have to specify what you mean by "this". Warhammer: Khaine touches upon a lot of what I´ve written but some is also based on former High Elf background. The fact about Khaine being really bad though is made explicitly clear in the book, beyond any doubt what so ever.

This depiction of him as a roid nut larger than khorne is just so comically ridiculous even you yourself have to comment on khorne being better.

Exactly. I think this is the point the book is trying to drive home. To realize that pursuing Khaine in any way, shape or form is inherently very dangerous for the Elves. The last battle is just tragic to read about from an Elven point of view, regardless of faction. Some of the things Tyrion and his followers do...

As to elves becoming little more then zombies in his service how does this even begin to square up with the 6000 years of dark elf fluff and history in naggoroth - even the witch elves themselves have to with the aid of rituals and drugs work themselves up into a killing frenzy , they however wind down afterwards otherwise they would simply be expendable cannon fodder and worse pretty much a once off force and they have never really been described that way.

The Elves in Naggaroth have never actually had an Avatar of Khaine near them. At best, they have felt a vague presence by their rituals and in battle. It´s no-where near the all-consuming influence Tyrion has because he has the Widowmaker. I think the book is trying to tell us that the Curse of Aenarion is little more than Khaine´s true effect on the Elves. Once tainted it´s as poisonous to Elves as anything else. Aenarion´s court was rumoured to be cruel and brutal. Likewise, Tyrion´s is brutal beyond what even the Dark Elves are used to. This is elaborated in the book.

Lastly the type of roid khaine described would simply just keep killing the elven god till there was nothing, he would have no time for deals with vaul basically no sublety.

Perhaps Khaine, being a God and not an Elf after all, is better suited to actually calming down? With his divine nature, he should be better suited to have some degree of self control than an Elf which would likely be totally consumed by his nature.

As to your speculation on khaine being responsible for the fall , wouldn't that responsibilty fall at the door of those that tricked him into starting the war ?

Correct. Which brings us back to Chaos and explains my anger first and foremost towards Asuryan and Lileath, for failing to intervene. Again, I don´t believe Khaine to be inherently evil (unlike Chaos), but the others around him definitely share a lot, if not all, of the responsibility here.

@aurynn - The description of the Elves that have been completely consumed by bloodlust is way beyond what I´ve ever read about Khorne followers. "Blood for the blood God" followed by slashing axes and punching clubs in a highly skilled manner doesn´t even come close to dropping your weapons, screaming from the top of your lungs without uttering any meaningful sounds while trying to tear apart your enemies (or allies, in the lack of such) with your bare hands.

[RogueSun]

Part of me thinks all of the Avatars of Magic are going to either Ascend at the end of the campaign or die in the fight to kill the Chaos Gods. Which would leave the Elves in an interesting position. Imrik would be the only one truly qualified enough to be the leader but I don't see the DE and WE choosing to follow him. WE likely fall to Araloth or the Sisters of Twilight OR Orion is reborn (he dies a lot). DE is a bit more tricky. Hellebron can likely lead the Khainite portion of the DE but I'm not sure if the non-witches would follow her lead or not. Regardless this would be an easy reset button to restore DE, WE and HE as their own separate army. But then again, if GW is looking to combine all the armies then so be it.

[aurynn]

@aurynn - The description of the Elves that have been completely consumed by bloodlust is way beyond what I´ve ever read about Khorne followers. "Blood for the blood God" followed by slashing axes and punching clubs in a highly skilled manner doesn´t even come close to dropping your weapons, screaming from the top of your lungs without uttering any meaningful sounds while trying to tear apart your enemies (or allies, in the lack of such) with your bare hands.

So you agree than Khorne might actually be "better" in form?

As for Chaos Gods being evil... let me disagree here. In my opinion they are not evil as such. They represent the entropy that is the fate of all things given form. Where there is creation, there must be destruction. Chaos gods is what claims us when we lay down and dont care. And at the same time - what claims us when we do in excess. If we dont do enough - we let the entropy claim us faster. If we do too much - we become its agent. Makes sense?

[Curu Olannon]

Part of me thinks all of the Avatars of Magic are going to either Ascend at the end of the campaign or die in the fight to kill the Chaos Gods. Which would leave the Elves in an interesting position. Imrik would be the only one truly qualified enough to be the leader but I don't see the DE and WE choosing to follow him. WE likely fall to Araloth or the Sisters of Twilight OR Orion is reborn (he dies a lot). DE is a bit more tricky. Hellebron can likely lead the Khainite portion of the DE but I'm not sure if the non-witches would follow her lead or not. Regardless this would be an easy reset button to restore DE, WE and HE as their own separate army. But then again, if GW is looking to combine all the armies then so be it.

Imrik is the natural and implied choice ("Crown Prince of Caledor") in Warhammer: Khaine if that is how the events unfold. Araloth is gone. Sisters of Twilight are another interesting choice for leading the Elves. I can´t see Orion being reborn again, the book explicitly states that he knew he wouldn´t survive this time when he died. Hellebron is dead. The Dark Elves have no other natural leaders alive, that we know of, apart from Malekith.

@aurynn - It´s hard to tell. Prior to reading Warhammer: Khaine I would be of the opposite opinion, but now I´m not so sure. Khaine could definitely be a worse god than Khorne from the way things are now, in my opinion.

Chaos gods are evil. They seek to destroy and manipulate as per their own desire, gladly killing or torturing anyone in their wake. While Khorne to a degree, like Khaine, may be driven by instinct, Tzeentch and Slaanesh are beyond a doubt evil in its purest form. Nurgle I don´t know that well (gotta read Glottkin). Their very existence may well be because of the entropy you describe though, but I don´t see this restricting them from being evil in any way.

[aurynn]

Chaos gods are evil. They seek to destroy and manipulate as per their own desire, gladly killing or torturing anyone in their wake. While Khorne to a degree, like Khaine, may be driven by instinct, Tzeentch and Slaanesh are beyond a doubt evil in its purest form. Nurgle I don´t know that well (gotta read Glottkin). Their very existence may well be because of the entropy you describe though, but I don´t see this restricting them from being evil in any way.

I guess I am looking at it from a different perspective. There is good and evil as perceived by mortals, from which position I agree with you. But there is also good and evil by another perception. Khorne is Darwinism in its purest form. Nurgle loves life - all life - bacteria, viruses, etc. Slaanesh is senses-driven - can be actually seen as the ultimate anarchist and hippie. Freedom of doing and experience everything in full without laws or restrictions. There is no negativity even in the most insane deeds he or his followers do - everything is just experience. And Tzeentch - the anathema to status quo and stagnation. He makes life interesting.

All this is only a matter of perception or point of view if you like.

[Curu Olannon]

I guess I am looking at it from a different perspective. There is good and evil as perceived by mortals, from which position I agree with you. But there is also good and evil by another perception. Khorne is Darwinism in its purest form. Nurgle loves life - all life - bacteria, viruses, etc. Slaanesh is senses-driven - can be actually seen as the ultimate anarchist and hippie. Freedom of doing and experience everything in full without laws or restrictions. There is no negativity even in the most insane deeds he or his followers do - everything is just experience. And Tzeentch - the anathema to status quo and stagnation. He makes life interesting.

All this is only a matter of perception or point of view if you like.

Well made point, sir I agree with your arguments, but I still perceive them as evil. Probably because I´m mortal ^^

[aurynn]

And that is exactly why my elves will continue to fight Chaos in every form. With every ally we can find.

[Aramil Sianontel]

I beg to differ here with the above.
I consider chaos evil, because even though it stands for all the things mentioned above,
it uses a malicious twisted lens to bring that into being.

Maybe to better rephrase, chaos itself is not evil, but the beings entirely born of it tend to be.

A friend once voiced the opinion that chaos is actually the force of the imaginary which i tend to find very
romantic.

Creates magic and magical beings. It exists throughout the whole warhammer world in many shapes and forms.
It can be harnessed to make wonderful things come to existence. If however escapes control it becomes toxic and
destructive, and tends to destroy the "conventional" reality in which everything else exists undoing even itself.

As a sum my own personal opinion, is that chaos is an energy. An energy that can never be entirely eradicated from the warhammer world. The beings born of it, tend to be warped manifestations of reality, the same way magic is changed depending on the caster on the conventional world. These beings tend to wish to undo reality, thus consuming everything, in their own kingdom. Thus they are perceived as evil, by the victims of that attempt.

If those beings have personalities, and are self aware, and still don't give a shit about the pain they cause to the convetional world, then yes, they should be considered evil.

[Dark Reaper]

@Ollanon: Hellebron is not dead. She is one of the three DE special characters who actually survive. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Malus make a return either, seeing as there is a new BL novel about him being released next year.

[aurynn]

If those beings have personalities, and are self aware, and still don't give a shit about the pain they cause to the convetional world, then yes, they should be considered evil.

You are talking about consciousness to causing harm as a deciding factor for being good or evil, which is very simplistic in my opinion. You have a personality and self awareness but dont give a shit about the pain you cause to the world of bacteria or viruses when you wash your hands. For them their world is the one that is conventional. Are you evil? Therefore - a matter of perspective. We (elves) might be nothing more for chaos gods than viruses are for us.

However, it does not matter anyway. My point was that Chaos Gods are NOT as simple as just "evil". They are symbolic too. The whole struggle against chaos has a lot more meaning than defeating the bad guys.

[Aicanor]

If those beings have personalities, and are self aware, and still don't give a shit about the pain they cause to the convetional world, then yes, they should be considered evil.

The little evils we all do every day (what, antibiotics? ). But what you wrote is very apt. Chaos is the life-force that flows through everything. Too little is bad (Nagash), too much is bad as well. This is probably one of the things I dislike 40k, it is such a cold place... At least there are trees in Athel Loren.

[NiallCampbell]

Hello again all,

Long time no see - I scuttled away to the Underempire for a while to raise a Skaven host but funnily enough something's drawn me back to Ulthuan.net - not sure what

Just received my copy of Khaine and I know I have to read the book, but I genuinely feel a bit depressed! Stupid I know, but in all seriousness I didn't see that coming!

Thanks for the summary above Curu, it gave me some good background. What this means for WH going forward I have no idea.

[draxynnic]

Tzeentch is actually the most interesting one to try to pick, I think. Tzeentch is the god of change, and generally seems to promote change regardless of whether that change is, from an outside viewpoint, good or evil. Tzeentch is probably the most purely chaotic of the chaos gods - Tzeentch promotes change for change's sake, and because statistically more changes lead to destruction than to creation, this makes Tzeentch naturally a force for entropy... but Tzeentch is just as eager for positive changes as negative ones.

It's stated that each of the Chaos Gods is tied to an emotion, and which one is Tzeentch tied to? Hope. Hope is essentially the driving force towards changing the status quo into something that might be better.

However, what really puts Tzeentch's true motives into question is that Tzeentch has been stated many times to put plans into motion that seem to be working against one another, and that nobody but Tzeentch truly knows what Tzeentch's true motives are. The other gods are all clearly agents of destruction, but Tzeentch is the one where some doubt can exist that in Tzeentch's own way, Tzeentch is actually working as a fifth column within Chaos to bring about a positive outcome for mortals and the material world.

Or Tzeentch could be just as bad as the rest. Nobody knows the true mind of Tzeentch for sure except Tzeentch, and even that might be in doubt.

[Curu Olannon]

Apparantly I have to go home and re-read the parts about Hellebron´s final battle. I was sure I remembered her being torn apart, vastly outnumbered. She could in principle rise up to become a leader, the question I suppose is how the other Elves (High, Dark, Wood, whatever) view following a disciple of Khaine in light of these events? In fact, how do the other Elves perceive Khainites at all now?

The bigger question in this analysis is where does this all lead? I am sure there are clues as to how this will unfold further on but I have thus far been unable to detect them. Tyrion´s heart is a good catch that could yet be a big deal. But if he survives by resurrection of said heart, how does that tie into the legends of old, e.g. the War in Heaven, Aenarion´s story etc? Is there some way we can anticipate how this´ll turn out? As for Teclis, him being able to pick up Tyrion in his incredibly frail state points to only one thing: He has to have powers from somewhere. Being the Avatar of Light is the obvious answer.

I guess I don´t see Tyrion´s role in what´s about to come, but then again I don´t fully understand Teclis´ plan either. How does he intend to unite his mortal champions - Nagash included - to actually be able to challenge the Dark Gods?

I have got to get my hands on Glottkin and Nagash to better understand the situation. Feel free to add your thoughts on the matter and speculate as to what´s about to come and the meaning of what´s happened thus far in the meantime

[Prince of Spires]

I guess I am looking at it from a different perspective. There is good and evil as perceived by mortals, from which position I agree with you. But there is also good and evil by another perception. Khorne is Darwinism in its purest form. Nurgle loves life - all life - bacteria, viruses, etc. Slaanesh is senses-driven - can be actually seen as the ultimate anarchist and hippie. Freedom of doing and experience everything in full without laws or restrictions. There is no negativity even in the most insane deeds he or his followers do - everything is just experience. And Tzeentch - the anathema to status quo and stagnation. He makes life interesting.

Good as the points are, I still disagree with them. The issue with this reasoning is that the consequence is that evil doesn't exist. No-one (except for evil cartoon geniuses perhaps) actually considers himself evil. The people we probably consider the most evil people from history didn't commit their acts because they thought "let's do something evil, mwhahaha!". They did it because they believed it to be the correct course of action for them. They just have very different morals to us.

Something is evil if it acts in ways that are considered to be evil by normal human (or elven in this case perhaps) standards. Someone unleashing a plague that wipes out half a city is evil, no matter how much he loves his bugs. Same with someone who has whole tribes murder each other just to find out who is strongest. So, chaos is evil.

Rod

[Knight of the Raven]

I suspect some people knew what they were doing wasn't right and they didn't care, which might be just as bad. If not worse.

I've given up on debating good and evil a long time ago. What I'm looking at now is hypocrisy. For example, Tzeentch demands sacrifice to power him and his armies, maybe for his own amusement as well, and yet was so afraid that he might end up destroyed upon entering the Well of Eternity that he threw Kairos in it instead of him. Samewise, both the Emperor of Mankind and the Ruinous Powers demand the murder of untold trillions to sate their ambition, but the difference between them was that the Emperor didn't balk at risking death when he faced the Chaos-empowered Horus whereas the four Gods hightailed out of Horus the second the Emperor primed his soul-shattering attack.

The issue with this way to look at things being that one can be hypocritical in some ways and not so in other ways, haha.

To go back on topic, does Khaine mind his own death when he at the same time wants to murder everything that moves? I don't know, but if he doesn't he has one redeeming feature.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, I forgot. Stop making sense Curu Olannon, you're cramping my blind hatred of everything Games Workshop does. For really reals.

[Baleanoon]

On Khaine, Curu is correct, and its always been this way at least as long as I can remember. Khaine has been about murder and violence for their own sake, and the power being free of mind to pursue those ideas without restraint or moral judgement it provides. The Elves have a god of honourable combat and he's a minor god in all 3 pantheons. His name is Eldrazor and he is essentially a nobody, what does that really say about the Elves?

It seems to me that a lot of the Elf community have a very romanticized view of their race. Its pretty unfounded, if you don't read (for seemingly lack of quality) the GW fluff I can appreciate not knowing, but even Tyrion the virtuous has been know to have battle rages. And, high elves have come under the influence of the Cauldron from proximity. In the Sundering series they also reworked the cults into purely cults to Elven gods, highlighting again the dangerous, and insane nature of the Elven gods and the Elves themselves. There were no Slaaneshi cults during The Sundering only Khaine (the largest), Hekarti and Atharti the 3 largest. The other cults became the primary 8 in the DE pantheon.

The writing has been on the wall for some time now according to modern fluff the quite a lot about the Elves is self destructive.

[Shannar, Sealord]

I think what you're actually seeing is that the fluff changes have seemed small, but have actually been rather large. The army book stories in the 8th ed. book can mostly be found in the 5th ed. book (and the 4th ed one too). So it seems that only a few small details changed. But one of those small details has been the motivations of the elves.

So while the 5th ed elves were written as the most noble of the races, expending their might to save the world, the 8th ed ones are just a different shade of dark elf.

On a side note, as much as some really like the the grimdark, fantasy that lakes anything noble and virtuous gos stale after awhile. Good vs Evil has been a theme since the dawn of time. But when there is no good, is there really any evil?

[aurynn]

Despite straying to another topic - Emperor does not demand any sacrifice. It is provided for him so he won't die and be reborn. I delved quite deeply into this topic, but this is WFB and I will happily discuss this over PM if you are interested.

@Rod - you practically confirmed that it is a matter of perspective as you talk of what normal human (elf) considers evil. For us, elves, the Chaos is the Big Evil. Anathema to our ways of life and existence and we should do anything and everything to destroy it. Notice that it is bigger evil than DE...

Back on topic:
I dont understand the Teclis' plan either. Especially when it seems to ride on great amounts of chance... Looking forward to seeing him having dinner with Nagash, Alarielle, Malekith and Karl Franz, discussing the finer points of the plan.

@Shannar - W40K is as grimdark as it gets and there is nobility... only its not nobility based on what you was born, but nobility of deeds and nobility of thought. Its more personal. Saying that elves are most noble of races is about the same logic as saying that some country of our world is the land of the free and home of the brave... Nice to have so generally positive view of the people, but I believe that this boils down to individuals.

[Shannar, Sealord]

W40K is as grimdark as it gets

Yes. But, 40k is more sci-fi than fantasy. That may seem like splitting hairs, but as a generalization people go into each genera looking for different things.

I know many of the current WFB really like the grimdark, but how many does it keep from getting as excited about it? There really isn't any way to know. But I do know that fantasy stories are usually expected to take a different direction that sci-fi ones. I know many will point to GRR Martin as an example of a darker fantasy that works. But having read (and very much enjoyed) his books, I can tell you that one of the reasons Game of Thrones worked so well was simply the shock factor. He was doing something that seemed new and refreshing. As everyone else starts following suit it looses some of it's appeal.

[aurynn]

My point is... we will have an unwritten book laid before us... we can make our own noble stories by our deeds and fluff. Without any stigma coming from the books and Army Books.