The End Times Fluff Discussion [May contain spoilers]

[CaledorRises]

Firstly, I whole-heartedly disagree that it would be hard to get all of the Knights together. Why? There are several reasons. The first of these reasons is the number of Knights left in Bretonnia. After a Civil War, plague, assaults by Arkhan, and other misfortunes, I find it hard to believe that there are that many Knights left in Bretonnia, especially considering that all of the Knights are lords or nobles or barons. That directly leads to my second point. These are Knights. They are not peasants that live everywhere and are hard to find, these are nobles and barons and dukes that live on estates or in castles. It is simply not hard to find estates and castles. Thirdly, they had months to do this! It took 15 days to march to Altdorf, and Helborg sent out these calls for aid during the spring and summer, not the autumn that the battle takes place in. In months of time, it would not be hard at all to gather the brave knights of Bretonnia that never shirk from a fight to the banner of their beloved King that they thought dead and who had the blessings of the Lady! The Knights would flock to his banner, not have to be dragged kicking and screaming from their home. Also, this is a Fantasy game with Magic. That makes everything significantly easier. But okay. Maybe a max of 100 Knights were off somewhere during those several months or just didn't answer the call. Any more than 100 is not reasonable. The army that Louen commands numbers between 7-12,000 Knights by my estimate based on the given sizes of some of the Chaos armies and the comparable size of Louen's column. 7-12,000 Knights is not hard the muster together given several months and the reasons I listed above.

@Francis. Given the choice, GW will take fluff from their own books and use it in the next, rather than from BL. Also, the End Times are not just some small supplement. Based on what we have seen so far, this took a huge amount of planning, and I think everything that happens in these books is going to be significant later on, and not just hyperbole for the sake of it

An example of such a mistake in the Glottkin book would be the size of the relief force sent to Marienburg. It is described as consisting of several regiments and being 200 men strong, doing the numbers I found out that this would make each regiment about 20 men strong, which is obvious nonsense both from a background perspective and from the way the force is described to fight.

The correct number is clearly meant to be 2000, kicking each regiment up to 200 men, which is still only 2 companies, but it works if you accept that imperial regiments provides companies to different armies rather than fight as a single unit. This would also help explain why famous regiments like the Carruburg Greatswords are present in most big battles that the empire fights.

Again, it's all about making logical sense of what is inherently a messy background.

This is a little absurd. You say the number is "clearly meant to be 2000". Yeah, that would make a lot of sense, they probably just left off a 0 on accident and didn't catch it when going through. Except that is 100% not what happened. The quote is "In total his army numbered just over two hundred men, and though it was resplendent in the colors of Altdorf and Reikland, it was a pitiful force next to an enemy invasion that had sacked one of the Old World's richest cities in a day." Saying that GW left off a 0 is possible. Saying that they had a typo and wrote "hundred" when they meant "thousand" is ridiculous. This is a small force that was deployed to swamps so that they could fight brigands and mercenaries and thieves. Now unless you are saying that the thieves of Marienburg require a 2000 man army to keep under control, I doubt it. Also, why would the Carroburg Greatswords be here? It is a great place to send men to train and get them ready for the fight, and it could be a necessary tax where each city has to send a number of their men to these jobs, and it makes the Carroburg Greatswords not seem too distant and aloof. They can learn how to fight side by side with normal soldiers, without the chance of losing any men. Next, the entire attack takes place in one street. One street. The Empire armies are supposed to be strong when fighting in their special formations, and in one street, 200 men are in a compact formation that cannot be flanked. That is strong when the enemy cannot bring their numbers to bear and attack in an uncoordinated fashion. You may notice that the force collapsed when they exited the street and suddenly had enemies on all sides.

Choosing what fluff you want to listen to is fine. If that's what you want to do, okay. However, it is not the fluff that will be used when the End Times continue. If the rumors that Bretonnia and the Empire will be joined are true, that would make much more sense if about 75% of Bretonnia's Knights were dead, and 50% of the Empire's population was dead. According to the Fall of Altdorf, it's not nearly this bad of a situation. Another piece of evidence that the Fall of Altdorf isn't the correct one? How it handles what happened at the Altar of Sigmar. The two stories are very different, and the one present in End Times Glottkin is the one that will be used, unless you think GW is going to retcon a book they just came out with in favor of a BL novel.

[Francis]

You took your time with that I see. Lets start with your last point first, the whole description of Van Carroburg's force is as an army, it even says so at page 26, and 200 men is no army no matter how you spin it, it is a warband or a company. The force was also not deployed to the swamps to fight brigands, it was sent by Helborg to reinforce Marienburg. Also the way the force fights, and that it fights at all against those odds, is inconsistent with its numbers. It also does not say that they lost formation when they exited the streets, in fact the oposite is true, the lost formation when they started to walk on cobblestone that was slick with blood as they pushed towards the docks.

What has happend in this case is that GW probably wanted the gamers to read about formations you might see on the tabletop rather then a small army that was clearly the original intention. As usual they botched it when describing numbers.

As for the knights of Bretonnia, not every knight owns a castle, most of them are glorified professionals who have sworn an oath to a baron, count or duke. Many of these live on small estates, many with their liege, a liege who in most cases don't want to leave his land defenceless. I suggest you read the Knight of the realm books, great BL publications .

Finally I wan't to draw your attention to the way GW makes its fluff. For the most part it recycles stuff from the 90s. You might not have been around for the Storm of Chaos campaign, but it was rather similar to what happens now, with new models, a big lead up and new rules. In the end they removed it all. My point being that GW is inconsistent in they way they make their fluff, and the new game designers are often bad at it as well. If you are in it for the story, then you keep your head about you and ignore the more ridicolous stuff in the army books, it makes everybody's life easier.

[Truthiness]

@Caledorrises. As both Shannar and Rod have said, I would suggest that you try to take the most glaring hyperbole in the GW books with a grain of salt. They have always exaggerated for the sake of exaggeration.

I would also suggest that you take BL more seriously, in fact, I keep running into this notion that BL is not really canon, when GW keep saying that nothing (not even their army books) in their background is true canon. Everything is written from certain points of view.

When you realise this, it is much easier to focus on the stuff that makes sense in the background and ignore obvious mistakes, which GW makes all the time.

This.

I took another look at Fall of Altdorf as well. As with Glottkin itself being ambiguous with the fate of the Bretonnian cav, Fall of Altdorf is ambiguous with the size of the army. The curious thing to me is Gilles le Breton's reaction. He says: "The Lady ordained you. I have no part in this." Very mixed message from the ruler of Bretonnia. While it is made clear that Louen still has considerable clout, which results in a huge turn out for the Errantry, it seems implied to me that le Breton still commands the fealty due to a king. I'm still not sure I'm taking the "every knight in Bretonnia" from Glottkin at face value. Thus far, the End Times fluff books have been chalk full of the usual hyperbole I've come to expect from Army Books. The novels are more detailed and exact, making them, I feel, just as credible if not more so.

We're splitting hairs at this point really. Lots of Bretonnian knights are dead. There aren't many knights left in Bretonnia. Louen is dead. Those are all the points that matter and we can very obviously agree on them. The main thing that I'm defending is Bretonnia's existence as an army. I feel like this just a continuation of the "squatting" of Bretonnia theory. I just refuse to buy it. They're fairly popular (I have three Bretonnian players in my group of friends and I've long considered adding myself to that), they're the only true medieval army in Fantasy, and the Arthurian inspiration is just too good to pass up. In addition, the reputable rumormongers still have them getting a book early next year. I'll say it again: Faeit swung way too far ahead in saying they were coming out so soon and caused a massive let down. Now he's swung way too far the other way by postulating their demise.

Here's another thing to consider. Yes Bretonnia is decimated. Yes, they have lost a lot of knights. But this isn't new for them. The very foundation story of Bretonnia starts with that. Giles le Breton is a mythical hero because he took a group of downtrodden humans and united them in a series of miraculous victories. I think GW is basically just "reseting" Bretonnia. Up until now, Bretonnia has been Arthurian myth at the pinnacle of Camelot. Well, we're now looking at a combination of pre- and post-Arthur. It is post-Arthur in the sense that the kingdom is broken due in large part to internal strife. It is pre-Arthur in that you still have a mythical hero capable of uniting and repairing the kingdom once more. It should be a time of great heroes and villians, which is perfectly in keeping with the 50% Lords and Heroes for the End Times.

[CaledorRises]

You took your time with that I see.

I actually don't know what you mean by this, could you please elaborate?

Lets start with your last point first, the whole description of Van Carroburg's force is as an army, it even says so at page 26, and 200 men is no army no matter how you spin it, it is a warband or a company. The force was also not deployed to the swamps to fight brigands, it was sent by Helborg to reinforce Marienburg. Also the way the force fights, and that it fights at all against those odds, is inconsistent with its numbers. It also does not say that they lost formation when they exited the streets, in fact the oposite is true, the lost formation when they started to walk on cobblestone that was slick with blood as they pushed towards the docks.

What has happend in this case is that GW probably wanted the gamers to read about formations you might see on the tabletop rather then a small army that was clearly the original intention. As usual they botched it when describing numbers.

The description of General Aldred van Carroburg: Aldred von Carroburg was a man who found irritation in almost everything. He was annoyed beyond measure when Kurt Helborg posted him to the defense of the western Reik, for he would far rather have patrolled the courts of the capital than the mosquito-ridden swamplands bordering Marienburg. He was incensed when his Deathknell Watch bore the message that he was to reinforce Marienburg immediately, and ...

The description of the Golden Pinions: The proud halberdier regiment known as the Golden Pinions were veterans of a dozen border wars against the mercenaries, militias, and bandit gangs that hovered around Marienburg's wealth like flies around a corpse. They relished the idea of going into battle against another nation - until they saw the invasion with their own eyes.

All that is required of an army is for it to be posted somewhere and under the command of a general. There is no law that says an army must have at least 1000 men or so, if it is a military force that is deployed to a location to do a job, and it is deemed sufficient to do the job, it can be called an army. Armies are technically just organizations of soldiers as part of a military formation. Considering that the Reikland Irregulars has 15 regiments on it's roster, it is an army, just a very small one. Kurt Helborg deployed the only force in the area to Marienburg, because the Empire didn't think Marienburg would attack them, they didn't think Marienburg could fall in one day, and because the Empire had bigger concerns elsewhere, there were very few men stationed in that area.

If GW wanted people to read about formations they see on the tabletop only, they wouldn't describe Epidemius's demon hosts as being thousands and thousands of demons.

I was wrong about the reason they lost, I will admit that, but I will not change my stance that 200 men could do what they supposedly did. Consider the Battle of Thermopylae, where the Greeks were outnumbered by at least 10-to-1. They held for 3 days against massive numbers because the enemy couldn't bring their numbers to bear, just like in this battle. Also, the forces they are up against are described as raging tribesmen, not elite Chaos Warriors. These are Marauders, and ranked, disciplined, trained, and skilled Empire soldiers are more than a match for Marauders.

As for the knights of Bretonnia, not every knight owns a castle, most of them are glorified professionals who have sworn an oath to a baron, count or duke. Many of these live on small estates, many with their liege, a liege who in most cases don't want to leave his land defenceless. I suggest you read the Knight of the realm books, great BL publications .

That directly leads to my second point. These are Knights. They are not peasants that live everywhere and are hard to find, these are nobles and barons and dukes that live on estates or in castles. It is simply not hard to find estates and castles.

Please read my post in it's entirety. I said they lived on estates or in castles. Also, again, in End Times: Glottkin it says that the nobles were not happy that they went to war again so soon and in defense of a country not their own, but Louen made them all come because he said that they were not worthy of the title Knight if they looked to their own fortunes while their allies died.

I took another look at Fall of Altdorf as well. As with Glottkin itself being ambiguous with the fate of the Bretonnian cav, Fall of Altdorf is ambiguous with the size of the army. The curious thing to me is Gilles le Breton's reaction. He says: "The Lady ordained you. I have no part in this." Very mixed message from the ruler of Bretonnia. While it is made clear that Louen still has considerable clout, which results in a huge turn out for the Errantry, it seems implied to me that le Breton still commands the fealty due to a king. I'm still not sure I'm taking the "every knight in Bretonnia" from Glottkin at face value. Thus far, the End Times fluff books have been chalk full of the usual hyperbole I've come to expect from Army Books. The novels are more detailed and exact, making them, I feel, just as credible if not more so.

We're splitting hairs at this point really. Lots of Bretonnian knights are dead. There aren't many knights left in Bretonnia. Louen is dead. Those are all the points that matter and we can very obviously agree on them. The main thing that I'm defending is Bretonnia's existence as an army. I feel like this just a continuation of the "squatting" of Bretonnia theory. I just refuse to buy it. They're fairly popular (I have three Bretonnian players in my group of friends and I've long considered adding myself to that), they're the only true medieval army in Fantasy, and the Arthurian inspiration is just too good to pass up. In addition, the reputable rumormongers still have them getting a book early next year. I'll say it again: Faeit swung way too far ahead in saying they were coming out so soon and caused a massive let down. Now he's swung way too far the other way by postulating their demise.

Here's another thing to consider. Yes Bretonnia is decimated. Yes, they have lost a lot of knights. But this isn't new for them. The very foundation story of Bretonnia starts with that. Giles le Breton is a mythical hero because he took a group of downtrodden humans and united them in a series of miraculous victories. I think GW is basically just "reseting" Bretonnia. Up until now, Bretonnia has been Arthurian myth at the pinnacle of Camelot. Well, we're now looking at a combination of pre- and post-Arthur. It is post-Arthur in the sense that the kingdom is broken due in large part to internal strife. It is pre-Arthur in that you still have a mythical hero capable of uniting and repairing the kingdom once more. It should be a time of great heroes and villians, which is perfectly in keeping with the 50% Lords and Heroes for the End Times.

I think you misunderstand me. I personally don't think that Bretonnia is in all that weak of a position, and in fact I think the Empire is in a worse situation. 50% of the Empire's entire population is dead. Bretonnia has lost most of their knights, but they are not totally crippled. Plus, most of the Grail Knights are alive, and that is a formidable force. Also, I don't think Bretonnia will be squatted. In the past two army combinations you need to have the books already to join the forces, so I think when they join the Empire and Bretonnia, they will either come up with a new book for Bretonnia, or do what they did with the Beastmen and update some of the rules.

I simply don't think that Black Library books are as official as the GW books. GW cannot 100% control what BL writes in their books, and they just give guidelines. It is my belief that whatever is in the GW books takes precedence over anything in the BL books, if the BL books cover something not covered in the GW books, then it's the only source we have and has to be taken as correct, but just as the army books supersede the main rulebook, it is my opinion that the GW books supersede the BL books. If you disagree, nothing I say can convince you otherwise and nothing you say can convince me otherwise, so I believe this side of the debate should end.

[Shannar, Sealord]

Reading Glotkin currently and it's bad. Nagash got a bit silly sometimes with the "and Vlad waved his arm and a zillion undead popped up" bits. But at least most of the battles seemed plausible. Whoever wrote Glotkin has never seen combat, or even actually studied it. The relief force of "two hundred" fighting it's way into the city down a road and making progress and then being stopped by slippery stones? They'd be stopped alright, and real fast. But it would be because they had no way to protect their flanks and rear. Think about the layout of a city (any city) for a minute. Try to advance a heavily outnumbered force into that without ending up surrounded. Even if "two hundred" is a typo and we take it all the way up to "two thousand" they way the story was written still makes no sense. And that's without going into things like throwing the vampire into the ocean.

Nagash was a bit cheesy, but I read though it in just a few sittings. I find myself putting Glotkin down frequently.

[RE.Lee]

I agree, Shannar. Glottkin is nowhere near Nagash as far as writing quality is concerned (at least so far, I've finished chapter 3 today). It has its moments, though, I find the Festus bits quite amusing (strangely enough I didn't pick up the Dr Faust reference before reading the book) and the prophetic paragraphs at the end of chapter 3 were nice as well. The Nurgle armies advance was quite poor though, the use of "deus ex machina" jars in particular.

[draxynnic]

From a military perspective, if Bretonnia has lost most of its knights it's just as boned as the Empire. After all, the Empire actually does regard commonborn infantry as true soldiers - since Bretonnia was grimdarked in 6E, expectations on peasant militia in any serious battle boils down to 'try not to die before the real warriors get to your part of the battlefield.' If most of the Knights have been lost, they've basically lost their military strength altogether.

Leaving the Grail Knights... Could well be part of the setup for a merger, through maintaining a couple of the most distinct Bretonnian units. I'm not saying I do think such a merger is brewing, but if I was going to set up a Bretonnia-Empire merger rather than Chaos Dwarfing the Brets entirely, I'd probably do it in a manner that involves destroying Bretonnia's ability to be an independent power while keeping the units I was planning to keep through the merger intact. And by killing off Louen along with most of the Knights, it does seem as if they've done just that, depending on whether Gilles can stick around after the crisis is over. Does Louen have an heir to speak of?

[Findolfin]

I could indeed see the ancient lie being revealed as Khaine being in fact Khorne.

Malekith despite all his evil deeds would never serve Chaos, he always fought them or tried to use them. Such a revelation amidst Chaos forces assaulting both Ulthuan and Naggaroth ( via Morathi’s treachery ) could very well change everything the Dark elves stand for. Add in despair and the imminent destruction of the elven race as a whole, it might indeed lead to an elven alliance as dark elves abandon their false god ( and probably Naggaroth in the process ), thus shattering the mirror of light and dark.

Seeing as Malekith also resisted the sword of khaine, Maybe in the end Tyrion draws it and becomes dark while Malekith in an act of redemption for himself and his people becomes light, fighting Tyrion and both ultimately dying as Malekith use his last strength to put the weapon back in it’s Altar.

Dang... I was not that far it seems

However, it seems elves won't abandon their gods but rather abandon only some of them and fight along with the gods they decide to follow. Dark elves do abandon Naggaroth from what I gather.

Also, while Malekith do look like he redeem himself, it does not seem to be due to their god being Khorne all along. Could it be instead that the elven court tempered with the flames of Asuryan the first time leading to him being burned when he really was the true phoenix king? Thus really cheating him? It is another long shot, but it does seem he is the Phoenix king after all.

[John Rainbow]

Color me annoyed somewhat by the Glottkin book too. It didn't feel as well done as the Nagash writing. I was more annoyed by the fact that all the Nurgle characters made it, along with pretty much all the 'good' ones except Louen. His death was fine and decent bit of the story actually but things like the Glottkin throwing that vampire lord into the water so he comes back later or the Blight King tentacle guy getting rofl stomped by goblins but somehow still living annoyed me.

I have really high hopes for the Elf book, probably due to my increased investment in HE as a race. I really hope they get the story correct. If its done really well I think it can be really good. The whole Teclis/Malekith story is fascinating, as are the conversations between Imrik and Malekith that have been leaked - they tend to show that Malekith knows he will not be the Phoenix King and it strongly hints that Imrik will become King of the Elves as it talks about him asking the families of the people he has killed to follow him. After all, who doesn't love a good redemption story? Who knew Malekith was the new Jaime Lannister?

[Truthiness]

Glottkin died as did Festus no?

[draxynnic]

Dang... I was not that far it seems

However, it seems elves won't abandon their gods but rather abandon only some of them and fight along with the gods they decide to follow. Dark elves do abandon Naggaroth from what I gather.

Also, while Malekith do look like he redeem himself, it does not seem to be due to their god being Khorne all along. Could it be instead that the elven court tempered with the flames of Asuryan the first time leading to him being burned when he really was the true phoenix king? Thus really cheating him? It is another long shot, but it does seem he is the Phoenix king after all.

Regarding that tampering thing...

I was thinking earlier that the flames of the phoenix are something that is generally associated with purification and rebirth rather than simple destruction. What if the actual lie is that the purpose of the flame of Asuryan is not to weed out the unworthy, but to burn out impurity? Not a perfect process, of course, but it might be that if Malekith had stayed the course rather than hopping out the other side, he would have come out reformed just as his father did - the reason it was such agony for him was that he had so many sins to be burned out. This might make it even more painful for him if he was to reattempt it, since he has millennia of additional sins and corruption to pay for... but the support of the Phoenix Guard might give him the confidence to carry through and come out fully cleansed on the other side.

The Great Lie, then, is in the nature of the flames. It's likely that one of the murdered princes could have defiantly told Malekith that the flames would never accept him, leading him to believe that the pain was a sign of rejection, when in truth the flames were not seeking to choose a candidate but to reshape Malekith into a suitable Phoenix King.

Historically, Aenarion and Malekith were the only two to enter the Flames unprotected, and Aenarion the only one to pass all the way through - other Phoenix Kings since have been protected from the full effects. What if, in protecting them from the pain of the flames, it's also prevented them from receiving the benefits as well, explaining how some of the Phoenix Kings since have been such utter disasters?

[John Rainbow]

Nice idea about the flames.

[Findolfin]

Yep, and it does seems like the process was painful for Aenarion also:

"True to his word Aenarion hurled himself into the brazier of the flames of Asuryan, at first it seemed as through the flames would consumed him, his skin blackened and peeled, his hair was burned from his head but then a miracle occurred. He began to heal, and after a few moments stepped out of the flames reborn as the first Phoenix King, the light of Asuryan now burning within his breast."

The major difference is that he sacrificied himself. So what could lead Malekith do the same thing and thus become pure of light? That's the only way he could become pure of heart, if he is the one. Which by extension makes me beleive that the mentionned purest of heart have to go through the flames of Asuryan, be it Malekeith or anyone else.

Could even still be Tyrion. Another question if he does go in the flames, did he drew the sword before of after doing so? hrmm...

[draxynnic]

Indeed, Aenarion's example was part of what I was thinking. Malekith's problem could have been entirely because, misunderstanding or having been misled about the nature of the ordeal, he backed out rather than pressing on and going all the way through. Particularly if the example he was basing his experience off was Bel Shanaar, who had been granted protection from the effects of the flames.

[John Rainbow]

... Bel Shanaar, who had been granted protection from the effects of the flames.

Where are things like this in the fluff?

[draxynnic]

To be honest, I can't strictly remember, but I do recall it being mentioned somewhere that after Aenarion, the Phoenix Kings were given a protection spell as part of the ritual preparations to pass through the flames. It's certainly become obscure now - I think it came up sometime while 6E was the latest edition, since I don't think it's in the current or pre-6th army books.

[Shannar, Sealord]

To be honest, I can't strictly remember, but I do recall it being mentioned somewhere that after Aenarion, the Phoenix Kings were given a protection spell as part of the ritual preparations to pass through the flames. It's certainly become obscure now - I think it came up sometime while 6E was the latest edition, since I don't think it's in the current or pre-6th army books.

I think it's in the 5e army book. I'll have to look it up. It's just a casual mention.

[draxynnic]

Yeah, from what I recall there wasn't a big deal made about it, it was just referenced in a passage that was about something else. Might have been Morvael's suicide.

[nick larking]

It was also mentioned in some BL book(s) that the priests do some kind of protection spell/ritual.

[Tech less]

Yep , the army book - the bit about the priests preparing bel Shannar for the trip through the flames ( I think the bit about the various kings )

[John Rainbow]

Yep , the army book - the bit about the priests preparing bel Shannar for the trip through the flames ( I think the bit about the various kings )

Interesting. Thanks guys. I'll have to check this out.

[vual]

The book "Malekith" describes Bel as having wards placed on him in preparation for his walk thru the flames. At the end of the book before Malekith goes thru them, the high priest (I forget his name, starts with an "M") calls out that he cannot go thru the flames, the priests have not cast the protective wards on him yet.

[Maxwell123]

Spoiler Alert.

This was just posted on Warseer:

So there is a sample in the Itunes store of the End Times Khaine Book with the section on Malekith the Eternity King.

It goes through how everything that Malekith endured prior to walking through the flames was just a test from Asuryan. Won't go into that.

However at the end of this section it goes on to say how Teclis schemed to unmake the Great Vortex and use it's power to make eight chosen mortals the EQUAL of the chaos gods. Eight corresponding to the 8 lores of magic. He intended to bind Fire to Malekith thus completing his transformation into a "beacon of light and hope" but instead treachery and misfortune ended up binding Shadow to him instead.

So Malekith is the chosen of Shadow. Nagash of Death. Alarielle of Life. And perhaps Karl Franz is perhaps Light? That leaves us with Fire, Metal, Beasts, and Heavens. Hopefully one of the dwarf characters takes on one of these lores. I cannot imagine anything other than metal.

REALLY excited as to where this is going.

For Fire, it could be Imrik, or perhaps even Caledor Dragontamer (very fitting) if he is freed as the vortex unmade.

I think we'll find Life may turn out to be some kind of merger between Alarielle and Ariel to become the embodiment of Isha.

[draxynnic]

With respect to Aicanor's request to keep fluff discussions here instead of the rumours thread:

Well correct me if I am wrong, but the Asuryan/Lileath/Isha stuff do not fit within the Verena/Morr/Shallya and the Shallya/Taal story goes against the fluff of the Elves too. So I am going for "no, the pantheons are not the same".

Who says one side (or both) haven't messed up the stories over the centuries? If the human gods were picked up off the Elves, it probably mostly happened four thousand years ago or so, either through direct contact or coming across Elven shrines after the War of the Beard and adopting them as their own. Differences in dogma do not mean they cannot come from the same root, especially when there are so many parallels.

Well mixed up yes, but not knowing who the hell is the mother and father of the Pantheon? Although the Taal/Shallya story from Glottkin happened now, not thousands years ago. Not convinced, personally. Just sayin'. But hey! Its fantasy, everything is possible.

I'd meant to address this yesterday, but I read it on my phone and had forgotten by the time I got to a computer...

Not knowing the top of the pantheon may seem like a big gap in our eyes, but consider:

* If humans have adopted the elven pantheon, the elves with which they'd likely have had the most contact with (and that is relative) would be the Wood Elves, and they downplay Asuryan's role (Asuryan isn't even on the inside circle of their pantheonic mandela). If human religion has been influenced by the Asrai, they might not have known about Asuryan at all, leading them to make their own assumptions about where the pantheon started. Particularly if the 'influence' comes from coming across abandoned shrines that emphasise Isha and Kurnous over Asuryan rather than any direct religious instruction.

* Asuryan is a pretty standoffish god even to the Elves. It's possible that Isha, Kurnous and some of the other gods have appeared to humans in the past (the Lady of the Lake is, I believe, said to be one of the minor Elven deities) but Asuryan never has. Again, since they don't know about the actual head of the pantheon, human mythology will fill in the most powerful gods they do know.

* From the perspective of the primitive state of humanity at the time their mythology was being formed, a god of civilisation may simply not have seemed all that relevant to them. So even if they knew of Asuryan, they might have downplayed his relevance such that, by the time they did develop civilisation, he'd been forgotten and other gods had been fitted in as the originating point of the pantheon.

Certainly, I think there's a lot of circumstantial evidence in the naming. Manaan and Mathlann seems too similar to be coincidence. There's also similarity in the names (if not genders) of the gods of death: Morr and Morai-Heg. "Ishnernous", while being in fantasy it may not be Studio canon, is all but conclusive, and 'Shallya' shares a syllable as well as a role with Isha - and if we consider the possibility that Shallya might be a conflation of Isha and Lileath, that would explain the second syllable. I could easily see 'Isha-Lileath' being shortened over thousands of years and the corresponding number of generations to "Shallya."

And lastly - HE as a whole never were "good", so I really do not understand waving this word around like a cross against DE.

Actually, the 5E High Elf army book actually specifically stated that High Elves were the most altruistic race in Warhammer. Of course, that was before the entire setting was grimdarked and every race that could be called "good" was sent on compulsory puppy-kicking courses.

On this apparent fluff about Asuryan having chosen Malekith and everything that has happened being a test:

We've had indications before that Asuryan is still more concerned about his own power and influence than the plight of the Elves... as individuals, anyway, since as a race they're at least a major part of his power and responsibility. It's been implied that part of the reason Aenarion initially opposed Caledor's plan was because Asuryan's power in the mortal world would also be reduced by the Vortex (as all gods, "Chaos" gods or not, reside in the Realm of Chaos) and was reluctant to make that sacrifice while any chance of a conventional victory remained. That said, I would have to say that if it was intended to be a test, then Malekith should have failed - the Sundering and six thousand years of kinslaying should be a pretty clear indication of unsuitability by any criteria. Besides, even if Asuryan wanted a dynasty, why would Malekith be the chosen successor and not Tyrion, descended from Aenarion's first son? Because he wants to wants to keep the inbreeding through the ritual marriages to the Everqueen down to the level of half-siblings rather than full siblings?

Either way, though, driving the Phoenix Kings insane seems to be cutting off his nose to spite his face. It also doesn't fit with a lot of the fluff - yes, some of the Phoenix Kings did go off the deep end, but most of them didn't.

On the whole... it's fairly clear that a resolution of the split of the elven races was going to be needed for the Final Battle, and since it's been indicated that Malekith didn't fall of his own accord in the first place, then a redemption of Malekith would be the way to bring those Dark Elves that aren't completely irredeemable back into the fold. In fact, come to think on it, what I could see is the "revelation of the Great Lie" being the actual lie - Malekith is being told what the Witch King wants to hear in order to bring him back into Asuryan's orbit, but this is basically a ploy to get Malekith close enough to Teclis, the Everqueen, and the Dragontamer that they can remove the corruption. Once recovered from the clutches of evil, Malekith would probably actually make the best Phoenix King for the times from a tactical perspective - it brings the Dark Elves in, and while Malekith did spend thousands of years fighting for the wrong side, he does still have thousands of years of experience and first-hand knowledge of Chaos. It's still on the realpolitik side of the sliding scale of idealism versus cynicism, but it's better than Asuryan carrying the Idiot Ball and sabotaging his own people for thousands of years over an inexplicable choice for chosen successor.

In fact, until explicitly Jossed, that's going to be my headcanon for the entire affair.

[Lecai]

First of all, Asuryan as a "deity" isn't actually the "Creator" of the species known as Elves because we know from official fluff that they were bio-engineered by the Old Ones probably by modifying an existing ape-like hominid species already existing on the planet. The nature of these entities known as "Gods" are also explained in WHFB fluff; they are Warp entities made up from the psychic potential of a species collective thoughts.

The Elves never had a "Hereditary monarchy" IIRC, the "Phoenix Kings" were always elected by a council of Ulthuan's regional rulers. If Asuryan WANTED a system like Hereditary monarchy for the elves, couldn't he have INFORMED them of his wishes that he wanted some dynasty to rule over the Elves? Y'know, nudged them in the "right" direction like he is doing now? Even Malekith knew that he wasn't supposed to instantly be the new Phoenix King just because his father before him was one and that was the reason he and his retainers sneaked weapons into the Shrine of Asuryan where this was forbidden and murdered the unarmed Princes and Nobles before walking into the Flames. So, the whole "Malekith was supposed to be King" argument is just ridiculous. Whoever that was elected was supposed to be the Phoenix King. Sure, the Princes who were against the idea of Malekith becoming the new Phoenix King not trusting that Bel Shanaar would be accepted by Asuryan and not get immolated to dust and casting protective Wards on him before entering the Flames is nothing but a dick move and they shouldn't have done this. Honestly, I don't get why they even needed to do this... Even if Bel Shanaar was rejected by Asuryan for whatever reason and died in the process they still could have elected another Prince and would have eventually gotten the message that Asuryan has a massive hard-on for Malekith and only wants him after the 4th or 5th candidate burned to crisp in the altar.

This. new. fluff. just. doesn't. make. any. sense. The hack of a writer simply didn't bother to maintain any consistency with the existing material at hand before coming up with an explanation of why certain events played out the way they did in order to advance the storyline...

[Shannar, Sealord]

This. new. fluff. just. doesn't. make. any. sense. The hack of a writer simply didn't bother to maintain any consistency with the existing material at hand before coming up with an explanation of why certain events played out the way they did in order to advance the storyline...

Exactly. Judging from what we've gotten to read so far I'm honestly starting to wonder if he's read it, or if he just had a couple of friends sum it up for him.

[Findolfin]

Seeing as Malekith also resisted the sword of khaine, Maybe in the end Tyrion draws it and becomes dark while Malekith in an act of redemption for himself and his people becomes light, fighting Tyrion and both ultimately dying as Malekith use his last strength to put the weapon back in it’s Altar.

Also, while Malekith do look like he redeem himself, it does not seem to be due to their god being Khorne all along. Could it be instead that the elven court tempered with the flames of Asuryan the first time leading to him being burned when he really was the true phoenix king? Thus really cheating him? It is another long shot, but it does seem he is the Phoenix king after all.

Well... that`s one of the times I wish I had been wrong... I certainly did not foresee Ulthuan sinking however. The whole thing sucks