Kairos Fateweaver - Question

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PapaElf
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Kairos Fateweaver - Question

#1 Post by PapaElf »

Kairos Fateweaver, a special character Deamon Lord, is a two headed level 4 wizard (each Head). I don't have a new Daemon book, and would like to know exactly what his spell selection abilities are. I know he has "Seer" and that his "left" head selects from the lores of Life, Metal, Light, and Heavens while his "right" head selects from Death, Beasts, Shadow and Fire.

I know he gets four spells with each head. What I don't know is does he have to pick a lore per head and then take four spells from that lore, or does he have the ability to totally chery pick the four spells; i.e., say one spell from each different lore.

In addition he "knows" the entire lore of Tzeentch
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#2 Post by dabber »

He is a Daemon special character. Thus the possibility that is most powerful is the correct one.

He chooses one spell from each lore.
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#3 Post by Keith »

dabber wrote:He is a Daemon special character. Thus the possibility that is most powerful is the correct one.

He chooses one spell from each lore.
I don't understand this logic at all....., 'thus the possibility that the most powerful is the correct one' ?????



What does his text say?
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Re: Kairos Fateweaver - Question

#4 Post by Marinero »

PapaElf wrote:I know he gets four spells with each head. What I don't know is does he have to pick a lore per head and then take four spells from that lore, or does he have the ability to totally chery pick the four spells; i.e., say one spell from each different lore.

In addition he "knows" the entire lore of Tzeentch
Keiros is the most potent spellcaster currently in Warhammer.

His left head may choose any four spells from the Lores of Life, Metal, Light and Heavens. His right head may choose any four spells from the lores of Beast, Death, Shadow and Fire.
Both heads know the lore of tzeentch.

So it is like seerstaff ability, only extending over all the 8 lores.

What is important to know is that at the beginning of each magic phase, the DoC player chooses which head Keiros will use for that phase and Keiros may cast spells only known by that head. So there is 'some sort of limition' :roll:
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#5 Post by Prince_Asuryan »

Dabber is saying that he's the most powerful model in the game for 3 reasons:

1) He's a daemon
2) he casts magic
3) he's a special character

As for the Q. yes, that about sums it up...
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#6 Post by dabber »

Keith wrote:I don't understand this logic at all.....
Might help if you quoted me correctly. :)
The entire Daemon book is broken. The special characters are the most broken part of the book. Thus if you aren't sure how a daemon special character works, assume the most powerful interpretation.

Papaelf knew most of the rules, he just didn't know if it was 4 from the same lore or 1 from each of 4 lores. I'd say knowing 1 from each of 4 lores is definitely more powerful. And, per my logic, that is what you should assume.


PS In my first post, I typed the assumption statement before checking my daemon book. After checking the book, I added the precise "He chooses one spell from each lore", which happily fit with the assumption. :)
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#7 Post by PapaElf »

Limits ? right!. So there is nothing that would keep him from picking say a "magic Missile" from four different lores and playing four magic missiles a turn.
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#8 Post by Marinero »

Nope, nothing will prevent him from doing that
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#9 Post by Keith »

Generally though, I am not sure that Kairos is worth is. He doesn't have the reroll ability you can give a regular Lord of Change, and Kairos has only one attack (where as the LoC can actually beat some things in combat)
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#10 Post by dabber »

Keith wrote:He doesn't have the reroll ability you can give a regular Lord of Change, and Kairos has only one attack
Yes, he does.
Kairos is very worth it. Look at how often he shows up on top tables at GW events. Also in the winning army at the US 'Ardboyz.

Kairos is better than a normal lord of change because he does exactly what you want him to do - cast magic. The normal lord of change has this internal conflict between casting his best spells (bolt and firestorm are magic missles) and getting in combat. Kairos just cast and flies away, and has greater resistance to the ranged damage that most threatens him. Plus he costs LESS than a fully loaded lord of change
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#11 Post by Shandiar »

dabber is right. Back him up with dice to cast, and he can cast whatever spell you deem necessary. Rerolls no problem, moving a unit etc all np. He is hard and difficult to catch and kill
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#12 Post by Keith »

dabber wrote:
Keith wrote:He doesn't have the reroll ability you can give a regular Lord of Change, and Kairos has only one attack
Yes, he does.
Kairos is very worth it. Look at how often he shows up on top tables at GW events. Also in the winning army at the US 'Ardboyz.

Kairos is better than a normal lord of change because he does exactly what you want him to do - cast magic. The normal lord of change has this internal conflict between casting his best spells (bolt and firestorm are magic missles) and getting in combat. Kairos just cast and flies away, and has greater resistance to the ranged damage that most threatens him. Plus he costs LESS than a fully loaded lord of change
All the top tables in the final round of US 'Ard boyz was Manfred V. Kairos.
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#13 Post by Inthildir »

Sorry, the "new kid" has to chime in here.
Kairos Fateweaver sounds really neat...duality/dichotomous...two heads two sides of the Lore spectrum...but, where is the balance in this guy?
Is Teclis even comparable? How about the new Slann wizards?
I understand that he's supposed to be a Daemon forged from the very source of Magic in the Warhammer Universe, but man!
When something is this abusable, why would anyone bother playing against an army bearing this guy?
There would have to be a lot of preparation before a game against someone who you KNEW was going to play this guy. However, if you're at the local and someone asks for a game and you agree and they pull out this guy...WTF? I dunno...
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#14 Post by Keith »

In a big game Lord Kroak can be incredibly nasty, as far as the new lizardment go. He only has one spell, but it can be cast over and over and it pretty amazing!

Slann's have been toned down a bit in their new book. But their cost has also gone down, which I like, as it makes them a lot more cost effective.

Once you catch Kairos, he is pretty much out of luck.
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#15 Post by PapaElf »

Keith wrote:Once you catch Kairos, he is pretty much out of luck.
The operative phrase in that statement is, "catch Karios", even than catch him with what; i.e., He flys, could very well know "Steed of Shadows", is tough 5, has five wounds, can't be wounded better than 3+, has a 3+ ward save, gets +2 on his casting rolls, and can reroll one D6 dice roll per turn.
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#16 Post by Prince_Asuryan »

Inthildir wrote:Sorry, the "new kid" has to chime in here.
Kairos Fateweaver sounds really neat...duality/dichotomous...two heads two sides of the Lore spectrum...but, where is the balance in this guy?
There isn't any. Like the vast majority of special characters, GW sacrifice balance and playability in favour of overpowered characters that are in the background.
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#17 Post by nwo »

Prince_Asuryan wrote:
Inthildir wrote:Sorry, the "new kid" has to chime in here.
Kairos Fateweaver sounds really neat...duality/dichotomous...two heads two sides of the Lore spectrum...but, where is the balance in this guy?
There isn't any. Like the vast majority of special characters, GW sacrifice balance and playability in favour of overpowered characters that are in the background.
Kairos if the only overpowered char in my opinion. Thorek is standing on the line.

When the things get worst is when a army is overpowered as a whole, which is the case of deamons, because there is not much you can do besides being forced into powergaming. Its boring, very boring.
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#18 Post by Prince_Asuryan »

Kairos, Thorek, Teclis are the big three.

Others up there include - Karl Franz on Dragon (why do Empire have a Dragon?), The Masque (due to combos), Manfred, Vlad (ish).

Most others are the opposite end - so pointless no-one will EVER take them except for extreme fluff reasons.
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#19 Post by Silver »

PapaElf wrote:
Keith wrote:Once you catch Kairos, he is pretty much out of luck.
The operative phrase in that statement is, "catch Karios", even than catch him with what; i.e., He flys, could very well know "Steed of Shadows", is tough 5, has five wounds, can't be wounded better than 3+, has a 3+ ward save, gets +2 on his casting rolls, and can reroll one D6 dice roll per turn.
Steed of Shadows is restricted to US1 models only.
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#20 Post by nwo »

Prince_Asuryan wrote:Kairos, Thorek, Teclis are the big three.

Others up there include - Karl Franz on Dragon (why do Empire have a Dragon?), The Masque (due to combos), Manfred, Vlad (ish).

Most others are the opposite end - so pointless no-one will EVER take them except for extreme fluff reasons.
I have always thought about that but never came to an answer.
How indeed?
A dragon in the Imperial Zoo of Altdorf? :roll:
Some empire guys met a dragon and just turned out to be good friends, so they took him back and made him an optional private mount for the Emperor?
HE gave the dragon for some rather usefull vids? ( yeah im talking about porno, HE arent very good at that art )
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#21 Post by dabber »

Inthildir wrote:However, if you're at the local and someone asks for a game and you agree and they pull out this guy...WTF? I dunno...
I say "no thanks". I have no desire to play a super power build of the super power army. I understand some people might enjoy it, but I can find better things to do with my time. Same reason I don't attend GW GTs.
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#22 Post by Lord Anathir »

I've played against kairos a few times, including the first time I ever played against daemons, and he can be caught. I did it with magic. Lore of shadow is vital. Every turn 4 dice pit of shades on him and then 4 dice unseen lurker on a cav unit. Once you get a cav unit in combat with him (even a unit of helms), they should be able to wound or tie him up for a few rounds. I've never seen a kairos player not take a healing spell from light or life so trying to whittle him down with rbt is not an effective option. My current mage setup was change from silver wand, ring of fury, 2 scrolls to silver wand, 4 scrolls (and another scroll on a lvl 2 with seer) for a total of 5+5, which mean I have enough for a few turns. Kairos players won't have alot of magic defense, just the basic dice and maybe a scroll on another hero.
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And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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#23 Post by Prince_Asuryan »

That requires:

1) high magic levels

2) The spells

3) Them succeeding

4) I was under the impression that pit of shades did not effect flying models...

Either way, he's broken, and catching him is very difficult.
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#24 Post by Lord Anathir »

1,2,3) I use lvl4/lvl2, lvl4 with silver wand lvl2 with seer. I think its the best character setup overall that we got. The lvl4 will likely get both and the lvl2 will take wolfs hunt. I've got 9-11 power dice a turn, so i can cast wolf's hunt and pit of shades reliable on 3/4 dice respectively and then 2-4 dice for unseen lurker or a small dice if i only have 2. Alternatively I can cast pit of shades and unseen lurker 4 dice each and attempt wolf's hunt on 2 dice. Either way 2 spells should get through.

4) It does.

I'd rather fight kairos then thorek, who can just ding his cock with his hammer in between 2 organ guns and theres nothing that can be done about it.

I'd rate thorek the worst, and then teclis, then kairos. Not so sure hes broken.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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#25 Post by Prince_Asuryan »

Lord Anathir wrote:1,2,3) I use lvl4/lvl2, lvl4 with silver wand lvl2 with seer. I think its the best character setup overall that we got. The lvl4 will likely get both and the lvl2 will take wolfs hunt. I've got 9-11 power dice a turn, so i can cast wolf's hunt and pit of shades reliable on 3/4 dice respectively and then 2-4 dice for unseen lurker or a small dice if i only have 2. Alternatively I can cast pit of shades and unseen lurker 4 dice each and attempt wolf's hunt on 2 dice. Either way 2 spells should get through.
But I, at least, dislike the use of magic to play, and I find more than 8 power dice to be broken in itself. Plus, the fact that you HAVE to use magic to combat a single model is a problem. You've sunk a good lot of points into that, and there's the rest of the daemon army to kill off.

Finally, I still find magic unreliable, as you can see from the UiF tabletop report :P If they have 4-5 DD, they're gonna stop one spell, and should have a scroll or two with them. And even then, if the Player is good, Kairos is gonna be in a safe location from even wolf hunts etc.

I see where you're coming from, but I still think it's a lot of if's and buts...
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#26 Post by Lord Anathir »

Alot of things have to work out yes, but they worked out for me. You have to remember a few other things as well:

1) Kairos is going to want line of sightr and range for his own spells, and unless he takes heavens (which I doubt) he will be in the 24 inch range, meaning beasts, unseen and pit have their uses.

2) Kairos is a big chunk of points, equal to or slightly less then my lvl4/lvl2 combined. I'm content with negating him with my entire magic phase. I still have 1400 points of the army to the deal with the rest of the daemon army, so its doable.

3) The power level of the number of power dice has to be considered in relation to the army. 10 Power dice of, say, empire, is not as strong as 10 power dice of high elves, do to our superior and more reliable spell selection. Just as 10 HE PD is weaker then 10 DE, Lizard, VC, or Skaven dice. 8 is a harsh number anyways. Some armies rely on magic to deal with large targets like dragons and tanks, especially the ones that dont have cannons or big d6 damage machinery.

4) Sure hes got scrolls to stop my phase, maybe 1 or 2, and I have 5 to stop his phase. We're spending about the same points on magic and I think my phase would eventually win out.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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#27 Post by nwo »

Wow incredible.

I had never noticed Kairos had Initiative 1 ...

Which seems to be just retarded.

He should be Initiative 10 because of the "Tzeentch knows all" crap which is the reason why he has 3+ ward, he knows hes fate and as a result he can avoid getting hit.

Its not the "good senses" Initiative thing, but works the same way.
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#28 Post by VictorK »

Prince_Asuryan wrote:Others up there include - Karl Franz on Dragon (why do Empire have a Dragon?)
Oh c'mon. They nerfed Ghal Maraz. Karl Franz is strong but he's hardly close to being overpowered, even with the Imperial Dragon.

This Kairos guy sounds like bad news. What a DoW cannon? Or have they shut that down this edition?
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#29 Post by The Custodian »

Kairos in nuts but beatable, as mentioned before shadows helps lots...

My personal way of dealing with him is shoving a unit of zombies in his face ala danse o Happy (I play vamps)...
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