Rolling DM Spells. EDIT, GW REPLY IS IN!!

[Lord Anathir]

Can someone explain why people seem to think you can swap spells for fireball?

[Keith]

people think that the 'may' in the sentence means that they 'may' swap for sword INSTEAD of fireball.


I believe that the 'MAY' in the sentence means that you may swap for sword instead of not swapping.

[Wildling04]

2 things to make this more reliable, or at least show/eliminate bias.....

1) Post it on a neutral site, or at least, non-high elf site.

2) Add poll options that indicates how often people that are voting a certain way play a dragon mage:
a) swap for sword only -- I use of have used a DM often
b) swap for sword only -- I rarely or never play a DM
etc....

Just a thought;)

For the record, I think that it's intended that a DM default spell is Sword and that the only way to get Fireball is to roll it. Otherwise, I think the rule would read that the DM could swap any spell for "either" Fireball or Sword rather than "rather."

[mencius]

Alrighty, Gotta bump this up. Ive edited the original post with GW UKs reply. Im sure its of interest to anyone that uses a DM.

[Candy Chesthair]

Alrighty, Gotta bump this up. Ive edited the original post with GW UKs reply. Im sure its of interest to anyone that uses a DM.

Great! Thanks for the clarification!

[Marinero]

Excellent work mate, thanks for making this clear. Thanks GW, this was a fast response, and I must admit, very satisfying

[Lord Anathir]

the reply has the wrong sentence highlighted. They should highlight the sentence before, which states that you cant swap any spell for fireball.

[Lord Anathir]

I dont belive that reply. Until its offical in faq I maintain that you cannot swap any spell for fireball. It clearly says in the book that the flaming sword becomes the equivalent of the '1' spell just like fireball is normally and thus you cant swap for fireball.

If the original author wanted otherwise it would read: The dragon mage may swap a single spell for either fireball or flaming sword. Not swap for flaming sword 'rather then' fireball.

[Ruerl Khan]

I dont belive that reply. Until its offical in faq I maintain that you cannot swap any spell for fireball. It clearly says in the book that the flaming sword becomes the equivalent of the '1' spell just like fireball is normally and thus you cant swap for fireball.

If the original author wanted otherwise it would read: The dragon mage may swap a single spell for either fireball or flaming sword. Not swap for flaming sword 'rather then' fireball.

Same thing here, GW's e-mail responses have a tendency to be inconsistent, even with itself.

[eudaimon]

What an interesting debate, should be an example in “Eats Shoots and Leaves”.

I have always read, and will continue to read, the army book exactly as the GW response states. For Lord Anathir’s benefit, here is why:

A mage MAY choose to swap any one spell for spell 1 in a lore.

Thus, before we get to any other concerns, going on the basic rules alone, a Dragon Mage MAY choose to swap any one spell for the default spell in the Lore of Fire, i.e. Fireball. This is “as normal”,

Now, onto the entry into the army book, where it states the Dragon Mage MAY choose to take Flaming Sword rather than Fireball “as normal”. They may also choose to NOT take Flaming Sword rather than Fireball “as normal”.

So, if the DM chooses NOT to use the special rule he reverts to the rules “as normal”.

If it was supposed to read that the DM could take Flaming Sword instead of Fireball, the sentence would have said something along the lines of “when choosing spells at that start of battle, DMs choosing to replace a rolled spell with a default spell will replace the rolled spell with Flaming Sword, rather than Fireball as normal”.

[Lord Anathir]

I am not sure that the DM can opt out of his 'reckless' rule.

You highlight the word 'may', but the key word is 'rather'. Rather is another way of saying 'instead of'. The dragon mage has the option of swaping a spell for flaming sword INSTEAD OF/RATHER then fireball. Flaming sword has effectively swaped positions with fireball, it now acts as the default spell.

Look, if they wanted to give you the option for both, all they had to say was '... may swap a spell for flaming sword OR fireball.' But using the words 'rather then'? cmon we're really pushing it here.

the word 'may' is being misunderstood. This is referring to the option of swapping the spell at all. The DM may swap for flaming sword rather then fireball as normal, or not swap for flaming sword rather then fireball as normal.

[Minsc]

I understand now, how this is debatable;

"He may choose flaming sword, rather than fireball as normal".

In this case, he can only take the flaming sword. He changes his default spell from fireblall to flaming sword.
This is mostly RAI, and the way the writer intended.

"He may choose flaming sword, rather than fireball as normal2.

In this case, you can argue that he "may choose" if he wants to change his default spell to flaming sword or not. If not, he still keeps fireball as his default spell. I think this is abit more RAW than RAI though.

I wouldn't take GW-mail responses too seriously. I once had a mail-responce where GW said that Treemen couldn't stand and shoot .

Either way, I rarely (read: never) play fire a Dragon Mage, but even if I did, the thing is so overpriced, so I don't think anyone at my gameclub would care or not if he could swap for fireball. If someone tried to swap too fireball against me, I would probably let him/her. Anything to make the Dragon Mage playable. (It's more a matter of principles now, right-or-wrong.)

But I still think it's not RAI to swap for fireball, and I'd like a FAQ on it. (But I doubt there will be any.)

[Ruerl Khan]

Its also a question of how GW writes their rules, they are simply put, masters of writing their rules in the vague sense so that they can be interpretated.

[mencius]

Well far out, im not sure what else to do... Im going to write to GW again to clarify, it seems people arent convinced.

[Lord Anathir]

"He may choose flaming sword, rather than fireball as normal2.

Cmon people there is no way this means:

In this case, you can argue that he "may choose" if he wants to change his default spell to flaming sword or not. If not, he still keeps fireball as his default spell. I think this is abit more RAW than RAI though.

But thats the problem. It doesnt say he may chose to change default spell, there is nothing to indicate that the mage has the option of selecting the default spell, all it says is that he has the option of swapping one spell for flaming sword.

Remember the actual sentence reads:
'...may chose to swap one of the spells for flaming sword, rather then fireball as normal.'

notice the placement of the comma, that is the end of the phrase. So really the sentence could have read (with same effect): 'may chose to swap one of the spells for flaming sword.'

Now the word 'may' means he has an option. So what is this alternative option?

'may chose to swap one of the spells for flaming sword'

and the opposite

'may not chose to swap one of the spells for flaming sword.'

[Marinero]

So there are certain people here, who would disregard an answer from GW, on the basis that:

1. It cannot be true - aka the poster is lying
2. GW are idiots, and their right hand does not know what the left hand is doing
3. S**t, I did not get mine, bo-hoo, I am going to deny what I read, as it does not suit me.

This is close to my definition of a certain label for behaivior, but, for fear of a vengeful moderator, I will not spell it out..

[Minsc]

2. Some people at GW are idiots, and their right hand does not know what the left hand is doing, and unless the answer comes from a army/rulebook or a FAQ, it shouldn't be taken too seriously.

[Jhaantikaal]

The 'rather than' sentence means you cant swap, say, spells 3 and 5 for 1 AND 2.
I'm happy to go along with this ruling, makes sense and helps out an otherwise fairly rubbish unit.

[Lord Anathir]

2. Some people at GW are idiots, and their right hand does not know what the left hand is doing, and unless the answer comes from a army/rulebook or a FAQ, it shouldn't be taken too seriously.

QFT

Seriously marinero, why would i argue against a boost to the dragon mage?

[Marinero]

That is what I am wondering too..

[AJ21st]

A mage MAY choose to swap any one spell for spell 1 in a lore.

Thus, before we get to any other concerns, going on the basic rules alone, a Dragon Mage MAY choose to swap any one spell for the default spell in the Lore of Fire, i.e. Fireball. This is “as normal”,

Now, onto the entry into the army book, where it states the Dragon Mage MAY choose to take Flaming Sword rather than Fireball “as normal”. They may also choose to NOT take Flaming Sword rather than Fireball “as normal”.

So, if the DM chooses NOT to use the special rule he reverts to the rules “as normal”.

I've been choosing spells for the DM exactly like that all the time. In my understanding, there are general rule for rolling spells and the specific rule for rolling spells for the DM. The DM could choose either one. I even swapped Flaming Sword of Ruin (spell no.2) for Fire Ball (spell no.1) under the general rule.

[Lord Anathir]

That is what I am wondering too..

The reason is that I honestly think the rule means you cannot swap anything for fireball. I may be alot of things but I dont go trying to find loopholes in my army book.

[mencius]

That is what I am wondering too..

The reason is that I honestly think the rule means you cannot swap anything for fireball. I may be alot of things but I dont go trying to find loopholes in my army book.

Ohh... so the rest of us that read it this way are searching for loopholes?? Thanks, Oh we COULDNT POSSIBLY be interpreting it differently. Its quite obviously become a matter of opinion. Ive played it the sword way because the majority voted that way but now im going to go with GW ruling simply because there is no other definate i have so far.

I encourage anyone to email them to see if you get a different responce.

[Lord Anathir]

double

[Lord Anathir]

Ohh... so the rest of us that read it this way are searching for loopholes??

You're not going to like the answer.

[Elanil]

God forbid we get a little extra choice with one of our units.

Bottom line is this: even though the employee from the 'Hobby Service' (which I assume is responsible for taking rules questions) is not in charge of writing FAQs, his word is still more absolute than yours when it comes to rules interpretations.

Until a FAQ rules otherwise, I am going to be choosing to swap for fireball, since that is what GW says I can do.

[Ruerl Khan]

God forbid we get a little extra choice with one of our units.

Bottom line is this: even though the employee from the 'Hobby Service' (which I assume is responsible for taking rules questions) is not in charge of writing FAQs, his word is still more absolute than yours when it comes to rules interpretations.

Until a FAQ rules otherwise, I am going to be choosing to swap for fireball, since that is what GW says I can do.

Its not about "his" words verus "anathirs" words, its about the rules question itself, and why Anathir don't believe the answer to be correct, and has stated why.

As such I will ask you kindly to refrain from baiting by making lines such as "god forbid we get a little..." and then add what you did.
Don't do it, its rude. Point out politedly how you believe Anathir to be incorrect, and keep to that only next time.

As for the rulesquestion again, i'll refer to the ultimate judge prior to a FAQ: The diceoff.

-Not that it matters to me, the HE player can pick wichever ruling her prefer, i'll still know where to aim my attillery for quick victory points.

[mencius]

Ohh... so the rest of us that read it this way are searching for loopholes??

You're not going to like the answer.

*sighs* and Ruerl Khan defending you against someone being rude toward you.

@Ruerl Khan, you might think about how Lord Anathirs putting himself across before you take a shot at someone else for being "rude"

Imo what Elanil wrote was appropriate and Anathir is simply being stubborn.

[Ruerl Khan]

Ohh... so the rest of us that read it this way are searching for loopholes??

You're not going to like the answer.

*sighs* and Ruerl Khan defending you against someone being rude toward you.

@Ruerl Khan, you might think about how Lord Anathirs putting himself across before you take a shot at someone else for being "rude"

Imo what Elanil wrote was appropriate and Anathir is simply being stubborn.

It was a message as a loremaster and is'nt up for discussion. I've noted your and his message to each other too, but decided to keep silent about it for now. But since you brought it up, here is my take on it:

Your message "Ohh... so the rest of us that read it this way are searching for loopholes?? Thanks, Oh we COULDNT POSSIBLY be interpreting it differently." is silly, its taking Anathir's words and twisting them into a personal attack, (wich he then followed up by making, silly man).

Ideally then Anathir would have omitted the part about loopholes, and ideally you would simply have pointed out that different opinion does'nt equeal looking for loopholes.

Really, you where both rather bad there, but it did not seem to continue so I let it rest, now your clearly still feeling annoyed because of that and I see I should have stepped in earlier and smacked you both over your fingers with the lorestaff.

Got that message clear? Understood that I don't "defend" any poster in particulair but try to keep the forum clean? Good. Subject ended, debate closed, topic locked.