Rolling DM Spells. EDIT, GW REPLY IS IN!!
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Rolling DM Spells. EDIT, GW REPLY IS IN!!
Going on from this thread> http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29091 id like to see how people play this confusing ruling.
OK! So i sent GW UK an email with the question at hand as well as the link to BOTH of the threads discussed here for there understanding of our readng and this was thier responce:
It seems according to GW we have the option for fireball OR sword for our swap spell. If you would like to mail them yourselves be my guest. But ill be playing it the way GW have told me to play it.
Thanks guys.[/img]
OK! So i sent GW UK an email with the question at hand as well as the link to BOTH of the threads discussed here for there understanding of our readng and this was thier responce:
It seems according to GW we have the option for fireball OR sword for our swap spell. If you would like to mail them yourselves be my guest. But ill be playing it the way GW have told me to play it.
Thanks guys.[/img]
Last edited by mencius on Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Candy Chesthair
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Either spell.
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I see it the same as the whole "re-roll" situation... You can't re-roll a re-roll, and it makes just as much sense to not be able to swap for one of two spells. At least, this is the way I would and have played it, if only to be nice to my opponents.
Granted, I would love to argue that you could swap for both spells. I think that would be uber-fluffy (they are masters of the Lore of Fire, apparently) and would lend to their potency and flexibility within the Lore. Limiting a master of Fire to just one spell is lame, anyway; let the mage choose between ranged offensive capacity or close combat shredding.
Granted, I would love to argue that you could swap for both spells. I think that would be uber-fluffy (they are masters of the Lore of Fire, apparently) and would lend to their potency and flexibility within the Lore. Limiting a master of Fire to just one spell is lame, anyway; let the mage choose between ranged offensive capacity or close combat shredding.
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Flaming sword only. It clearly says in the book you can chose to swap for flaming sword 'rather then fireball as normal'.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
I voted that its only flaming sword. RAW this rule is potentially a bit fuzzy, but still gets the point across, and I believe there is no arguement for RAI, RAI it is FS only...
And with rules, if it was even 50/50 for RAW and RAI is very clear, than RAI wins every time unless you hate puppies and kittens
And with rules, if it was even 50/50 for RAW and RAI is very clear, than RAI wins every time unless you hate puppies and kittens
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Don't know how people can consider fireball. Both RAW and RAI point to flaming sword.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Hey, if it were not such an even slit id be in total agreeance, too many people are reading it different ways. It will be interesting what GW has to say. I linked them to these two threads, hopefully they take it seriously and give it a thorough read. Id like to be told exactly what the rule is.Lord Anathir wrote:Don't know how people can consider fireball. Both RAW and RAI point to flaming sword.
For the time being ill give my oponent the benefit of the doubt and only play sword.
Keith, i think the arguement is the fact on the flip side, before any of that wording you get "may" Possibly presuming you can disregard this option if you want which leaves you with the normal option of fire ball.Keith wrote:What people vote has nothing to do with the rules. People are just wishing they can do both. Then cannot. It says rather than, not in addition to. If it made no reference to the origional rule, I would agree that you could do both. But it does refer to the rule in the BRB, and replaces it.
And that arguement is bogus. The choice (i.e. "may") is as it is with every magic user that rolls for spells, "You may choose to swap or not swap". Now if you swap, you get "flaming sword" as opossed to the normal number one spell, i.e. "Fireball"mencius wrote:Keith, i think the arguement is the fact on the flip side, before any of that wording you get "may" Possibly presuming you can disregard this option if you want which leaves you with the normal option of fire ball.Keith wrote:What people vote has nothing to do with the rules. People are just wishing they can do both. Then cannot. It says rather than, not in addition to. If it made no reference to the origional rule, I would agree that you could do both. But it does refer to the rule in the BRB, and replaces it.
PapaElf
If it wouldn't say "may swap", you'd be forced to take flaming Sword., before any of that wording you get "may" Possibly presuming you can disregard this option if you want which leaves you with the normal option of fire ball.
Just as you "may" swap a spell for Shield of Saphery if you don't roll it in the High Lore, etc.
I think that this issue need an official FAQ. Unfortunately, the wording can be read both ways, regardless what the proponents of the two versions say. Btw, claiming that the person who read this rule in a different way than yourself is a 'cheater' or 'RAW-abuser' is offensive and childish.
The problem with this particular rule is the wording.
I do not know what the intent of the author was. GW are known for poor definitions. However, claiming that ones understanding is the right one whereas another person's is obviously wrong, is borderline psychic.
Minsc, who will win the Barclay card Premiership this season? Man Utd or Liverpool?
The problem with this particular rule is the wording.
If the sentence had stopped before the bolded part, then it would have been crystal clear that a DM may swap a spell for the FSoR. However, the addition of the second part is what causes the confusion, as it can honestly be understood in both ways. 'Rather than as normal' can be taken that the FSoR can substitue the FB spell.Dragon mages may choose to swap onr of the spells rolled for Flaming sword of Rhuin, rather than with Fireball as normal
I do not know what the intent of the author was. GW are known for poor definitions. However, claiming that ones understanding is the right one whereas another person's is obviously wrong, is borderline psychic.
Minsc, who will win the Barclay card Premiership this season? Man Utd or Liverpool?
PapaElf wrote:And that arguement is bogus. The choice (i.e. "may") is as it is with every magic user that rolls for spells, "You may choose to swap or not swap". Now if you swap, you get "flaming sword" as opossed to the normal number one spell, i.e. "Fireball"mencius wrote:Keith, i think the arguement is the fact on the flip side, before any of that wording you get "may" Possibly presuming you can disregard this option if you want which leaves you with the normal option of fire ball.Keith wrote:What people vote has nothing to do with the rules. People are just wishing they can do both. Then cannot. It says rather than, not in addition to. If it made no reference to the origional rule, I would agree that you could do both. But it does refer to the rule in the BRB, and replaces it.
And your giving other people beef for having different opinions when it seems your having trouble deciding for yourself? I thought a follow up would remain AT LEAST impartial to what others were saying...PapaElf wrote:Warrior Mage Rule - "When selecting spells prior to the battle, Dragon Mages may choose to swap one of the spells for "Flaming Sword of Rhuin", rather then with "Fireball" as normal.
The way I read the "Warrior Mage Rule", it seems clear that one can swap one spell for either "Flaming Sword" (the exception) or "Fireball" (the normal case). The operative words appear to me, to be "may choose".
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The intent is pretty clear, especially in the context that any rules listed in an army book are exceptions to the main rule book. Thus, they should be read as qualifiers, modifications, or exceptions to the baseline rules. Does anyone have a problem with this paraphrasing of the baseline rule for spell substitution?
Because if you presuppose that bit of rules knowledge and followed it with:Normally, a mage may substitute the first spell on their spell list for one of their random rolls. In the case of Lore of Fire, this spell would be Fireball.
then I think the intent of the Warrior Mage rule is quite clear.Dragon mages may choose to swap one of the spells rolled for Flaming Sword of Rhuin, rather than with Fireball as normal.
- grantmepower
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Either. The Warrior Mage rules gives you a choice, you must take the sentence as a whole, not as pieces. Gestalt all the way. Odd that this is coming up now for discussion.
Lhachmacar, that is a very good point, but I still believe it can be taken either way.
Lhachmacar, that is a very good point, but I still believe it can be taken either way.
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Seems that you negleted to include the rest of my thoughs, an immediate double post.mencius wrote:PapaElf wrote:And that arguement is bogus. The choice (i.e. "may") is as it is with every magic user that rolls for spells, "You may choose to swap or not swap". Now if you swap, you get "flaming sword" as opossed to the normal number one spell, i.e. "Fireball"mencius wrote: Keith, i think the arguement is the fact on the flip side, before any of that wording you get "may" Possibly presuming you can disregard this option if you want which leaves you with the normal option of fire ball.And your giving other people beef for having different opinions when it seems your having trouble deciding for yourself? I thought a follow up would remain AT LEAST impartial to what others were saying...PapaElf wrote:Warrior Mage Rule - "When selecting spells prior to the battle, Dragon Mages may choose to swap one of the spells for "Flaming Sword of Rhuin", rather then with "Fireball" as normal.
The way I read the "Warrior Mage Rule", it seems clear that one can swap one spell for either "Flaming Sword" (the exception) or "Fireball" (the normal case). The operative words appear to me, to be "may choose".
I have decided the meaning of the rule, "swap for flaming sword or nothing". As for giving someone "beef" for differing opinions, I'm sorry if anyone believes that, it certainly was not my intention. Now, as for jumping on you for your assertion that the word "may" somehow leads to the selection of fireball, is not personal, after all I made the same mistake upon first reading of the rule. I'm attacking the arguement. I don't expect to change your mind on the issue, but I'll try.PapaElf wrote:Sorry, the more that I think about it, it is not all that clear. It could just as well be, "may choose "Flaming Sword" or nothing".
1. Question: "may" what ?
- Answer: "May choose to swap one of the spells"
- Answer: "Nothing, the spells stand as rolled"
- Answer:....Dragon Mages may choose to swap one of the spells for "Flaming Sword of Rhuin"....
- Answer....rather then with "Fireball" as normal....
PapaElf
@papaelf. No but "rather than as normal" Can be taken as, you can take the sword instead OR as normal, the fireball remains a option.
And also all i was just making a point Papaelf calling the arguement "bogus" When CLEARLY in the past couple of days you have had your own mixed feelings on the subject is just plain ignorant.
And also all i was just making a point Papaelf calling the arguement "bogus" When CLEARLY in the past couple of days you have had your own mixed feelings on the subject is just plain ignorant.
The arguement is "bogus"', saying it is not because I was on the wrong side at first reading, dosn't change anything. I was mistaken. I'm also out.mencius wrote:@papaelf. No but "rather than as normal" Can be taken as, you can take the sword instead OR as normal, the fireball remains a option.
And also all i was just making a point Papaelf calling the arguement "bogus" When CLEARLY in the past couple of days you have had your own mixed feelings on the subject is just plain ignorant.
PapaElf
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you can not chose fireball as a default swap. The only choice is flaming sword. there is no alternative argument.
using some people's logic I can claim my mage on foot can fly... because it doesn't say I can't! lol
using some people's logic I can claim my mage on foot can fly... because it doesn't say I can't! lol
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Maybe, And HEY your probably entirely right about the ruling. But the fact still remains theres enough votes either way for it to be discussed, simply ruling others understanding of the rule so bluntly OUT is still disrespectful, MORE SO that you had trouble deciding for yourself in the first place.PapaElf wrote:The arguement is "bogus"', saying it is not because I was on the wrong side at first reading, dosn't change anything. I was mistaken. I'm also out.mencius wrote:@papaelf. No but "rather than as normal" Can be taken as, you can take the sword instead OR as normal, the fireball remains a option.
And also all i was just making a point Papaelf calling the arguement "bogus" When CLEARLY in the past couple of days you have had your own mixed feelings on the subject is just plain ignorant.