Standard of Balance vs. Banner of Rage

[Keith]

*blinks*
*blinks some more*
That's solved it. Finally, once and for all!
The Standard of Balance does not say the unit loses frenzy- it says they lose the frenzy abilities! So the Chaos unit is still frenzied, it just doesn't get to use the frenzy abilities, like extra attacks.

That's sorted as far as I'm concerned- and I'm a Warriors player who routinely used the Standard of Balance (and routinely plays against High Elves carrying it).

Wow. That isn't it at all.

It loses the 'ability' of frenzy. Not the abilities that frenzy provides. Hated, and Frenzy are abilities. That is what you lose, not the benefit they provide. Since the unit with the banner cannot lose the frenzy ability, they will always receive the benefit of frenzy.

[Stormie]

I can see what you mean, "abilities" may simply refer to the abilities that are frenzy or hatred. But is frenzy really an "ability"? Put like that, I don't think so. It just doesn't sound right to me. Frenzy isn't an ability, it's a psychology rule. +1A and must pursue- those are abilities. It does also make it nice and clear as well with my interpretation, all abilities related to frenzy and hatred are lost, although the units have not lost the rules themselves.

Play it how you like, I'll play it how I like- I doubt any High Elf players are going to stop me

[Shandiar]

Stormie I like your interpretation and that's how I will play it for sure

[chaosmaddie]

here is the way I see it....

There are basically 2 different types of "frenzy". There is the "type 1" that is given by an item, or innate to a unit that acts as normal Frenzy, as in the case that once a round of combat is lost, that effect is lost. The Mark of Khorne would be a great example of that, or the new Forsaken in the WoC book that nobody uses.

There is the second version of frenzy, "type 2" that cannot be lost. It says so in the description, that models cannot lose it in any way, even if defeated in combat. Examples are: Banner of Rage, reaction 5-6 on the monster reaction chart, Skarbrad the Special Character Bloodthirster's "Rage Embodied" special rule (the frenzy from it would stick, the hatred would be normal and not stick when in base to base with SoB).


The way I see the Standard of Balance working, once a unit charges it, it is as if a round of combat has JUST OCCURED, in which the charging unit lost. No casualties, but it counts as if they just came off losing a round of combat with the unit that holds the Standard of Balance. This strips off "type 1" frenzy, but does nothing to "type 2", since they are still frenzied and will ALWAYS be frenzied (unless you can destroy the magic item granting it, but in the case of monsters or skarbrad....they will always be frenzied.)

That is why I see it dropping hatred, since it affects the first turn, and why the eternal hatred goes as well. If you didn't have hatred in the first turn, then you can't really have it in the 2nd and any consequent turns against the same opponent either. The dark elves "eternal hatred" doesn't say they can never lose hatred, just that they get the benefit of its uses in each turn after the first. If its gone in the first turn, its still gone in the 2nd and subsequent turns they remain in contact.

If some demon or something had "immortal hate" or some other such rule that said they had hatred in every round and could never lose it, then it would fall into that "type 2" category, but as of yet I don't think there is anything with that rule.

SoB still seems to be a good banner, having the benefits of giving the unit ItP and stripping off 95% of the frenzy and hatred out there. In combination with the Lion Standard that gives immunity to fear and terror, that is 2 units that you can protect (sometimes 2 more than some armies can get). Assuming the SoB trumps every special rule and still conveys those other benefits for its small points costs seems a bit much

that is kind of how I see it, and making a player with the Banner of Rage dice-roll off trying to keep his frenzy given the wording on both seems unfair to the Chaos player.

I play WoC among other armies, but if the tables were turned, that is how I would call it anyway. Mark of Khorne, strip it off, Banner of Rage...you'll have to go after that with Vauls Unmaking or something else that negates magic items, I'm sure you have a few items that can do this if you are that worried about the Banner of Rage.

[Natio]

I can see what you mean, "abilities" may simply refer to the abilities that are frenzy or hatred. But is frenzy really an "ability"? Put like that, I don't think so. It just doesn't sound right to me. Frenzy isn't an ability, it's a psychology rule. +1A and must pursue- those are abilities. It does also make it nice and clear as well with my interpretation, all abilities related to frenzy and hatred are lost, although the units have not lost the rules themselves.

Play it how you like, I'll play it how I like- I doubt any High Elf players are going to stop me

I'd stop you.

Now that I have the actual wording and not a summary from a friend I can quite clearly see the BoR holds on to the frenzy. There are two actions that the BoR does; one, grants frenzy and the SoB can take that away but the second action nullifies that SoB effect.

To the other reasons, including my own, I'd like to apply Ockham's razor. I think that the only way to support the SoB's effect against the BoR is to descend to pedantic analysis of words like 'ability' etc.

[Stormie]

Sorry for having an opinion, I'll try not to do that in future.

[Natio]

Sorry for having an opinion, I'll try not to do that in future.

As a high elf player that would, if we were in this situation, have your BoR work against my SoB; I don't think saying so was dismissive of your opinion or rude. I was mentioning that I was one such individual who would not expect the SoB to trump the BoR.