Finally, Revision for 7th HE- Honours and Ammendments

[Seredain]

So here's the revision I've been working on so long. I've play tested a variety of the options below against Orcs and Goblins (who got a few revisions of their own), new Lizards, Empire, Wood Elves and Vampires. In the end? ASF had to stay- it's very High Elfy, simple- I just think it works. The changes I've made below are so we can field a fluffy and competitive army without having to rely on the dragon (the star dragon itself will now only be ridden by Caledorian princes or 'whispering' archmages, while other elves will have to make do with the lesser dragons).

Also, these changes should allow our characters to match Dwarf Lords in a straight fight, which they should be able to do, without making them all-round gods. Many abilities are useful but limited, or affect elven troops/unit selection rather than boost the character himself. Some are elven fighting specialities which you'll be familiar with: when it comes to fighting skill we should be up there with the best. Our magic has received a significant boost just by increasing our available options and combos, but I've kept it strictly fluffy and you'll have to pay for it...

Note that the amount of points a character can spend on honours/items has gone up slightly (though not to Dwarf levels). This is because the HE 'cheaper items' gimmick is mostly just an illusion when it comes to our unique items. I've drawn up some new items but haven't had time to type them up yet. These will be forthcoming. Current items which match the description of some of the honours below will be removed from the list and replaced with new ones. Our weapons selection will be improved slightly.

Please have a read and let me know what you think.

Cheers,

S.


HIGH ELF ARMY LIST – amendments

Speed of Asuryan

Stays exactly the same with the following exception: all High Elf models will lose their ASF against enemy models who have charged them in the flank or rear. After that turn, however, the elves are said to have turned to face their attackers and so regain their ASF. This represents the fact that, while a prepared elven line will attack first at its chargers, it won't be able to if hit from an unexpected angle. IMO our opponents should be rewarded for pulling off a flank/rear charge. This limitation does not apply to skirmishers or characters on foot (unless they are part of a ranked unit).

Characters

High Elf fighting characters (and all other elf characters btw) have +1 attack. Nobles have 4 attacks, Princes have 5. This is what happens when you're preternaturally quick, preternaturally skilled and have been fighting for almost a thousand years. 1 more weapon skill than a 35 year-old human for -1 toughness doesn't cut it IMO.

Points. High Elf fighting characters cost an additional 5 points. Mages and archmages cost 5 points less than they currently do.

Troops

Spearmen - now cost 8 points per model. They can upgrade to heavy armour for +1 point per model.

Archers - now cost 10 points per model. Light armour +2 points per model. Shoot in 2 ranks.

Silver Helms - now cost 20 points per model, and come armed with lance, heavy armour, shield, elven steed. Barding is optional and costs +2 points per model.

Swordmasters - now have I6. Remember that stuff in the last rulebook about the fabled warriors of Hoeth being able to cut a candle without disturbing the flame? If any troops in Ulthuan have high initiative, these guys should. I'm not hitting out at Black Guard, I just think this feels right for the best fighters in Ulthuan. It also makes up for the above nerf to ASF.

White Lions – their cloaks are now the exact equivalent of Sea Dragon cloaks, ie +2 AS vs shooting, +1 AS in combat. This fits their role as heavy, strong, last stand axemen, as well as the great new illustrations for WAR.

Shadow Warriors - now come equipped with extra hand weapons.

Dragons - Sun Dragons' fire now has a strength of 3 (2 from any dragon is laughable!). Moon Dragons' breath is Str 4. Star Dragons' fire is now Str 4 and armour piercing. Star Dragons now cost 380 rather than 370 points.

Now for the juicy part!


HIGH ELF HONOURS – inc fluff.

All elves are immensely long-lived, some say immortal, and when they devote their time and peculiar powers of concentration to a task, they grow to master it beyond the capability of lesser races. The deeply engrained discipline of the High Elves of Ulthuan has created a generation of warriors with truly legendary talents. Their achievements are readily hailed by elven society as a source of inspiration, and perhaps the best hope that their land and people can be saved and reborn.

The Honours System and Magic Items

Lord choices may take up to 2 honours, combined with magic items for a total of no more than 120 points.

Hero choices may take 1 honour, combined with magic items for a total of no more than 60 points.


Prince and Noble Honours


Swordmaster - 40 points

Trained at the White Tower, this elf has dedicated his considerable lifespan to all the arts and weapons of combat. This elite warrior will exploit any weakness shown by his opponent, and any chink in armour. Truly he is one of the finest fighters in all Ulthuan.

The character gains +1 Weapon Skill. In addition, he has the "Killing Blow" special rule. Unless he has the 'Horsemaster' honour, the character must fight on foot. Note that he may take a magic weapon or any mundane weapon of his choice, though he may not take a lance. Note also that any weapons taken by the character must be paid for separately as usual.

Chosen of Asuryan - 40 points

A favoured disciple of the lord of the gods, the eyes of this warrior glow with holy fire, and he carries with him the deathly silence of the enlightened.

The character has a 4+ ward save, and causes fear. He may not be the army's general.

Defender of the Pheonix Crown - 40 points

This warrior has sworn to defend Ulthuan and the Pheonix Crown to the death. He and his followers will not leave the field until their task is done.

The character is equipped with a lion cloak. In addition he and any unit he is with count as being Stubborn. When taking break tests the unit may test on the Character's unmodified leadership.

Scholar of Saphery - 35 points

This warrior-mage has mastered many of the warlike arts, and to him magic is as much of a tool of war as the sword or spear.

The character counts as a level 1 mage. He may not wear any armour.

Horsemaster of Ellyrion - 15 points

This elf has spent centuries living, training and fighting in the saddle. Fighting from horseback is as natural to him as fighting on foot.

The character must ride an elven steed or barded elven steed. The character has 360 degree line of sight for the purposes of shooting only. Furthermore he may shoot any missile weapons he carries even if he marches during that turn's movement phase, just like a unit of light cavalry. Note that the character still suffers -1 to hit when moving as per usual.

Champion of Caledor - 15 points

This warrior carries the pride of his land at the point of a lance. Where others falter, he will lead the charge for the glory of Caledor Dragontamer.

The character with this honour must be mounted and armed with a mundane or magical lance. A Noble with this honour may ride a sun dragon for + 230 points. A Prince with this honour (and only a prince with this honour) may ride a star dragon for + 380 points. Any dragon ridden by a Prince with this honour may re-roll twice on the monster reaction table should the character be slain. The controlling player decides which result to choose.

Son of Nagarythe - 15 points

With his land ravaged and his people scattered, this elf has known nothing but war. He leads the fight as Ulthuan's first line of defence.

The character has the special rule "Nagarythe Hatred". If he is the army general then the army must contain at least two units of shadow warriors, regardless of army size. The character may not ride a dragon, but may ride any other mount of his choosing.

Merchant Prince of Lothern - 10 points

This Prince wields political power in the wealthiest city in the world. His personal fortune is such that his retinues are made up of the finest soldiers available, and his armoury contains impressive collections comprising some of Ulthuan's most powerful items of war.

Only a Prince may have this honour. The character may take no other honours but instead may add an additional 20 points to his magic items allowance, up to a total of 120 points. In addition, where he is the army general, any Silver Helms under his command will count as core rather than special unit choices.

Warden of the Northern Marches - 10 points

This elf hails from the wild shores of Chrace, Cothique or Northern Yvresse, lands under constant threat of attack from dark elf raiders and the human hordes. Too distant to be readily reinforced by the elite forces of the more powerful cities, the citizens of the region's fortified coastal towns have learned to fend for themselves. Their leaders are amongst the most rigorous drillmasters in Ulthuan, able to create and command the most disciplined of the citizen levies.

Character on foot only. Any unit of spear-armed High Elf infantry joined by the character generates +1 combat resolution during the close combat phase. Note that this bonus is not cumulative. If multiple characters with this honour join the unit it will still gain only +1 combat resolution.



Archmage and Mage Honours


Seer – 30 points

The winds of magic hold no mysteries for this mage. You know the score...

Archmage only. The character may choose his spells at the beginning of the game rather than rolling for them.

Wise – 20 points

The most important lesson taught to the students of High Magic is that the winds of magic flow from the Realm of Chaos. This mage knows that magic is a danger before it is a weapon and constantly arms himself against the worst excesses of his craft.

The mage ignores the effects of his first miscast. Note that the miscast spell still fails as it usually would in the event of a miscast.

Master of Winds – 15 points

One of those High Elves who has mastered that path of High Magic first trodden by the Heroes of the Dead Isle, this mage gathers the winds of magic with ease, sweeping aside the lesser spells of his enemies.

This mage generates 1 additional dispel dice during your opponent's magic phase.

Channeller – 10 points

The High Elves are the most learned of spellcasters, able to craft the most complex spells with ease.

The mage may use one additional dice to cast his spells than normal. A level 2 mage may use 4 dice to cast a spell, a level 3 may use 5 dice and so on.

Well Versed – 15 points

This mage has spent his life learning all of the magical arts to the point where he no longer sees the distinction between the colours.

The mage may swap one spell he rolls for before the game with the first level spell from any lore available to him, rather than from the first spell of his chosen lore as usual. If he rolls a first level spell from his chosen lore then he may only swap this spell.

Whisperer – 10 points

This mage communicates with the beasts of the world as if he were in conversation with any other elf.

Mages with this honour may ride a Great Eagle for +50 points. Archmages with this honour may ride a Griffon for +200 points or a Star Dragon for +380 points.

Disciple of the Martial Arts – 10 points

The Tower of Hoeth is a place as famed for the achievements of its fighting scholars as much as for its mages. This mage supplements his magical studies with training in the arts of battle.

Any mage with this honour gains +1 attack and +1 weapon skill. Furthermore, he may now be equipped with a spear, halberd, extra hand weapon or great weapon for same points cost as the equivalent fighting character. If he carries any of these weapons he may not be equipped with any magic item designated as a 'staff' or 'wand'.

[GobbladasSquig]

Horsemaster - 10 points

This elf has spent centuries living, training and fighting in the saddle. Fighting from horseback is as natural to him as fighting on foot.

The character must ride an elven steed or barded elven steed. He suffers none of the usual restictions from being mounted. Great weapons wielded on horseback grant +2 strength as if he were on foot. For the purposes of shooting and movement, including charges, the character has a 360-degree line of sight, as if he were on foot. If he joins another unit then he loses this improved line of sight for as long as he stays with the unit.

Oh, no way. That's way too powerful. 10pts for breaking some of the most fundamental core rules in the game? Sounds like it should be in the Daemons armybook. Definately limit his armour save to 4+ish and remove the option of barding. And still I would consider dropping the 360 charge LOS.

[Seredain]

And still I would consider dropping the 360 charge LOS.

Yeah I think you're right on this one. Maybe keep 360 LoS for the purposes of shooting only?

[geoguswrek]

So here's the revision I've been working on so long. I've play tested a variety of the options below against Orcs and Goblins (who got a few revisions of their own), new Lizards, Empire, Wood Elves and Vampires. In the end? ASF had to stay- it's very High Elfy, simple- I just think it works. The changes I've made below are so we can field a fluffy and competitive army without having to rely on the dragon.

Also, these changes should allow our characters to match Dwarf Lords in a straight fight, which they should be able to do, without making them all-round gods. Many abilities are useful but limited, or affect elven troops/unit selection rather than boost the character himself. Some are elven fighting specialities which you'll be familiar with: when it comes to fighting skill we should be up there with the best. Our magic has received a significant boost just by increasing our available options and combos, but I've kept it strictly fluffy and you'll have to pay for it...

Note that the amount of points a character can spend on honours/items has gone up slightly (though not to Dwarf levels). This is because the HE 'cheaper items' gimmick is mostly just an illusion when it comes to our unique items. I've drawn up some new items but haven't had time to type them up yet. These will be forthcoming. Current items which match the description of some of the honours below will be removed from the list and replaced with new ones. Our weapons selection will be improved slightly.

Please have a read and let me know what you think.

Cheers,

S.


HIGH ELF ARMY LIST – amendments

Speed of Asuryan

Stays exactly the same with the following exception: all High Elf models will lose their ASF against enemy models who have charged them in the flank or rear. After that turn, however, the elves are said to have turned to face their attackers and so regain their ASF. This represents the fact that, while a prepared elven line will attack first at its chargers, it won't be able to if hit from an unexpected angle. IMO our opponents should be rewarded for pulling off a flank/rear charge. This limitation does not apply to skirmishers or characters on foot (unless they are part of a ranked unit).

Characters

High Elf fighting characters (and all other elf characters btw) have +1 attack. Nobles have 4 attacks, Princes have 5. This is what happens when you're preternaturally quick, preternaturally skilled and have been fighting for almost a thousand years. 1 more weapon skill than a 35 year-old human for -1 toughness doesn't cut it IMO.

Points. High Elf fighting characters cost an additional 5 points. Mages and archmages cost 5 points less than they currently do.

Troops

Spearmen - now cost 8 points per model. They can upgrade to heavy armour for +1 point per model.

Archers - now cost 10 points per model. Light armour +2 points per model. Shoot in 2 ranks.

Silver Helms - now cost 20 points per model, and come armed with lance, heavy armour, shield, elven steed. Barding is optional and costs +2 points per model.

Swordmasters - now have I6. Remember that stuff in the last rulebook about the fabled warriors of Hoeth being able to cut a candle without disturbing the flame? If any troops in Ulthuan have high initiative, these guys should. I'm not hitting out at Black Guard, I just think this feels right for the best fighters in Ulthuan. It also makes up for the above nerf to ASF.

White Lions – their cloaks are now the exact equivalent of Sea Dragon cloaks, ie +2 AS vs shooting, +1 AS in combat. This fits their role as heavy, strong, last stand axemen, as well as the great new illustrations for WAR.

Shadow Warriors - now come equipped with extra hand weapons.

Dragons - Sun Dragons' fire now has a strength of 3 (2 from any dragon is laughable!). Moon Dragons' breath is Str 4. Star Dragons' fire is now Str 4 and armour piercing. Star Dragons now cost 380 rather than 370 points.

Now for the juicy part!


HIGH ELF HONOURS – inc fluff.

All elves are immensely long-lived, some say immortal, and when they devote their time and peculiar powers of concentration to a task, they grow to master it beyond the capability of lesser races. The deeply engrained discipline of the High Elves of Ulthuan has created a generation of warriors with truly legendary talents. Their achievements are readily hailed by elven society as a source of inspiration, and perhaps the best hope that their land and people can be saved and reborn.

The Honours System and Magic Items

Lord choices may take up to 2 honours, combined with magic items for a total of no more than 120 points.

Hero choices may take 1 honour, combined with magic items for a total of no more than 60 points.


Prince and Noble Honours


Swordmaster - 40 points

Trained at the White Tower, this elf has dedicated his considerable lifespan to all the arts and weapons of combat. This elite warrior will exploit any weakness shown by his opponent, and any chink in armour. Truly he is one of the finest fighters in all Ulthuan.

The character gains +1 Weapon Skill. In addition, he has the "Killing Blow" special rule. Unless he has the 'Horsemaster' honour, the character must fight on foot. Note that he may take a magic weapon.

Chosen of Asuryan - 40 points

A favoured disciple of the lord of the gods, the eyes of this warrior glow with holy fire, and he carries with him the deathly silence of the enlightened.

The character has a 4+ ward save, and causes fear. He may not be the army's general.

Defender of the Pheonix Crown - 40 points

This warrior has sworn to defend Ulthuan and the Pheonix Crown to the death. He and his followers will not leave the field until their task is done.

The character is equipped with a lion cloak. In addition he and any unit he is with count as being Stubborn. When taking break tests the unit may test on the Character's leadership.
This is pretty good, especially on a lord on dragon.
Scholar of Saphery - 35 points

This warrior-mage has mastered many of the warlike arts, and to him magic is as much of a tool of war as the sword or spear.

The character counts as a level 1 mage. He may not wear any armour.

welcome back old friend

Horsemaster - 10 points

This elf has spent centuries living, training and fighting in the saddle. Fighting from horseback is as natural to him as fighting on foot.

The character must ride an elven steed or barded elven steed. He suffers none of the usual restictions from being mounted. Great weapons wielded on horseback grant +2 strength as if he were on foot. For the purposes of shooting and movement, including charges, the character has a 360-degree line of sight, as if he were on foot. If he joins another unit then he loses this improved line of sight for as long as he stays with the unit.

this is just silly. a 5 attack, hatred guy with 18 inch/16 inch 360 los, strength 6 wih ASF in all rounds of combat, plus 70 points of magic items (helm of fortune, talisman of loec + something)

Champion of Caledor - 10 points

This warrior carries the pride of his land at the point of a lance. Where others falter, he will lead the charge for the glory of Caledor Dragontamer.

Noble only. The character with this honour must be mounted and armed with a mundane or magical lance. Furthermore he may ride a sun dragon for + 230 points.

Son of Nagarythe - 10 points

With his land ravaged and his people scattered, this elf has known nothing but war. He leads the fight as Ulthuan's first line of defence.

The character has the special rule "Nagarythe Hatred". In addition, Shadow Warriors will count as core choices where, and only if, he is the army general.
ok, this is just not right. especially not combined with the horsemaster thing above, hatred is brilliant, amazing with 5 attacks and core shadow warriors shouldn't exist, especially not with the current scout rules.

Merchent Prince of Lothern - 10 points

This Prince wields political power in the wealthiest city in the world. His personal fortune is such that his retinues are made up of the finest soldiers available, and his armoury contains impressive collections of some of Ulthuan's most powerful items of war.

Only a Prince may have this honour. The character may take no other honours but instead may add an additional 20 points to his magic items allowance, up to a total of 120 points. In addition, where he is the army general, any Silver Helms under his command will count as core rather than special unit choices.
120 points of magic items... are there any particularly dodgy combo's i can play with? i can't think of anything too ott. and core silver helms option is gonna be worth it, however i'd still take core shadow warriors instead

Warden of the Northern Marches - 10 points

This elf hails from the wild shores of Chrace, Cothique or Northern Yvresse, lands under constant threat of attack from dark elf raiders and the human hordes. Too distant to be readily reinforced by the elite forces of the more powerful cities, the citizens of the region's fortified coastal towns have learned to fend for themselves. Their leaders are amongst the most rigorous drillmasters in Ulthuan, able to create and command the most disciplined of the citizen levies.

Any unit of High Elf infantry joined by the character generates +1 combat resolution during the close combat phase.
BSB, this, battle banner, full armour, barded steed. thats d6+2 combat res already.



Archmage and Mage Honours


Seer – 30 points

The winds of magic hold no mysteries for this mage. You know the score...

Archmage only. The character may choose his spells at the beginning of the game rather than rolling for them.

This shouldn't be 30 points if i can take it 4 times.(ie on all my wizards) and it doesnt stop me taking an arcane magic item, say the ring of corin?

Wise – 20 points

The most important lesson taught to the students of High Magic is that the winds of magic flow from the Realm of Chaos. This mage knows that magic is a danger before it is a weapon and constantly arms himself against the worst excesses of his craft.

The mage ignores the effects of his first miscast. Note that the miscast spell still fails as it usually would in the event of a miscast.

meh, not really worth it unless im fighting WoC

Master of Winds – 15 points

One of those High Elves who has mastered that path of High Magic first trodden by the Heroes of the Dead Isle, this mage gathers the winds of magic with ease, sweeping aside the lesser spells of his enemies.

This mage generates 1 additional dispel dice during your opponent's magic phase.

ok this is pretty fun, espeially as you can take it on a caddy and still have 2 scrolls

Channeller – 10 points

The High Elves are the most learned of spellcasters, able to craft the most complex spells with ease.

The mage may use one additional dice to cast his spells than normal. A level 2 mage may use 4 dice to cast a spell, a level 3 may use 5 dice and so on.

this is ok, but you can't take it and seer on a level 2 so its never gonna be necessary

Well Versed – 10 points

This mage has spent his life learning all of the magical arts to the point where he no longer sees the distinction between colours.

The mage may swap any spell he rolls for before the game with the first level spell from any lore available to him.

oh dear, this is what is kown as a bad idea. An archamge with ser and this takes, for example, beast cowers, wold hunts, rule of burning iron and fireball. or unseen lurker, pit of shades, mistress of the marsh and rule of burning iron.

Whisperer – 10 points

This mage communicates with the beasts of the world as if he were in conversation with any other elf.

Mages with this honour may ride a Great Eagle for +50 points. Archmages with this honour may ride a Griffon for +200 points or a Star Dragon for +380 points.

what? this is brilliant! mage flying circus!

Disciple of the Martial Arts – 10 points

The Tower of Hoeth is a place as famed for the achievements of its fighting scholars as much as for its mages. This mage supplements his magical studies with training in the arts of battle.

Any mage with this honour gains +1 attack and +1 weapon skill. Furthermore, he may now be equipped with a spear, halberd, extra hand weapon or great weapon for same points cost as the equivalent fighting character. If he carries any of these weapons he may not be equipped with any magic item designated as a 'staff'.
this is pretty ok. why may he carry a great weapon and a "wand" but not a "staff"? 10 points seems a little cheap though.

sorry if this came off as a little aggressive, i was deliberately trying to break your item combos

[Seredain]

No, no, thanks for the comments! Half the problem with making rules is that you ahve to be specific with language. PLus I forgot to put in a few elements to the rules myself! Most of the time the only way to iron out creases is to bounce ideas off other people- I'm grateful for the help.

'Seer' does not replace seerstaff- so at least one Lvl 2 mage in your army can choose his spells AND take chaneller. I made this honour Archmage only to stops seer councils.

'Well Versed': MAJOR oversight on this one. It should actually read "one spell may be swapped for the first level spell of any lore instead of swapping for 1st level spell of the lore chosen (ie you couldn't swap 2 spells for 2 first level spells). Well spotted!

For the 'Warden...' honour, the character has to be on foot. That's important!

'Son of Nagarythe': I agree with you here. I'll amend this: One shadow warrior unit may be taken as a core choice. Do you think increase cost of this honour to 15 points?

'Horsemaster': I like the theory but it's back to the drawing board on this one. I'll get back to you.


I'll amend the text proper when I get a chance at lunch- I'm at work at the mo...

Keep the comments coming!

[Crawd]

You're pushing it too hard in some situation... Sorry but 9 points for spearelves 4+AS/3+AS in close combat, 3 rank attacks with spears, ASF. Way too powerful, in my opinion.

The archers should be the same but shoot in 2 ranks, you don't have to change too much, just this would be enough.

Silver Helm should have the barding optional instead of the shield optional, that's for sure, but they should get back in the core section but core that doesn't count in the core minimum, it would help a lot in the army composition.

Swordmasters, come on, don't whine... they already have 2A with a Great Weapon and they will hit before almost every units. They might strike after some unit but they still attack before most units.

White Lions, they shouldn't have the same cloak since it's not as hard as a Sea Dragon Cloak, remember, it's a Lion Cloak... But I think the cloak should give the +2AS against shooting and magical ranged attack. If you want to improve the cloak, MR1 would be good.

Shadow Warriors, the extra hand weapon should be an option, not automatics.

And for the "Juicy part", some are fine, but some, as other already said, are too cheesy... Sorry but, it doesn't seem to be balanced..

There's some nice stuff though but I wouldn't call that a revision. And for your information, I've seen several competitive army without any dragons. I think that some people just fall in the ASF trap which makes the HE player lazy about thinking to not get charged too fast and prepare some combo charges...

[Seredain]

I've edited the honours section to stave off cheese- thanks for the help so far.

Crawd,

I won't have Silver Helms as core generally because I believe spears and archers should be the heart and soul of the HE army. Also it makes the honour choices more complicated if you can buy your way to core SH (we don't want everyone choosing 'Swordmaster'...).

Having said that, our core choices need to be able to cut it, and at the moment they don't. In the general scheme of things we don't have any reason to choose more core units than we absolutely have to. Hence I don't consider either of the above revisions to archers and spears to be over the top considering their central importance to HE fluff and current graveyard status. I think we're going to have to disagree here.


I've also re-edited the 'Warden' honour to make our spears, specifically, more useful (well organised formations are more effective for a spear phalanx than a swirling line of swordsmen I guess). Currently toying with a unit upgrade for one spear unit to 'Elven Veterans' (WS 5 spears basically), but I can't decide whether this should cost +1 or +2 points per model.

On SM's: I see your point here... but it's just that fluffwise it makes sense that they have higher initiative than the average elf. Anyone else have some thoughts on this?

WL's: I like the heavier armour on them but 'll have a think. Maybe immunity to ranged poisoned attacks? Making them have MR might be overpowered.


Cheers,

S.

[geoguswrek]

No, no, thanks for the comments! Half the problem with making rules is that you ahve to be specific with language. PLus I forgot to put in a few elements to the rules myself! Most of the time the only way to iron out creases is to bounce ideas off other people- I'm grateful for the help.

'Seer' does not replace seerstaff- so at least one Lvl 2 mage in your army can choose his spells AND take chaneller. I made this honour Archmage only to stops seer councils.

ahh i see. that makes more sense then.

'Well Versed': MAJOR oversight on this one. It should actually read "one spell may be swapped for the first level spell of any lore instead of swapping for 1st level spell of the lore chosen (ie you couldn't swap 2 spells for 2 first level spells). Well spotted!
oh well, then i'll take rule of burning iron, wolf hunts, beast cowers and hunters spear? or pit of shades, unseen lurker, the 3d6 spell and rule of burning iron? or take foot characters and take steed of shadows and a lore with good spells. i think this honour will take some balancing

For the 'Warden...' honour, the character has to be on foot. That's important!

'Son of Nagarythe': I agree with you here. I'll amend this: One shadow warrior unit may be taken as a core choice. Do you think increase cost of this honour to 15 points?
takign ANY SW as core is not going to be tolerated. I have 2 core choices, 1 is SW, one is archers. Also hatred should be 15 points without the SW thing because our lord has 5 attacks

'Horsemaster': I like the theory but it's back to the drawing board on this one. I'll get back to you.

yeh, goodbye silly honour.

I'll amend the text proper when I get a chance at lunch- I'm at work at the mo...

Keep the comments coming!

Now, your current version of warden. Let me attempt to create a broken unit with it.... (guess how long this will take)
i take 20 spearmen, they have heavy armour, full command and the warbanner. I then take a BSB on foot, great weapon, warden with battle banner.
in the army i also take a hero with fear causing and a great weapon+ talisman of loec. now normally the unit has 3 ranks, outnumber, banner, banner, banner, battle banner, warden, thats 8+d6. if i'm against mutliwound/ck/fear causers, i add the extra hero, so the BSB won't die (8 s6 attacks on a tiny front, some with the talisman) and if i'm looking at a flank charge, the bsb hides in the middle of the unit.
another problem:
i take 35 spearmen, fc warbanner. i add to the unit: a bsb with the battle banner + warden, a hero with great weapon + tal of loec + loremasters cloak + warden, a hero with great weapon + sacred incense + warden and a lord with horse, helm of fortune, great weapon, full armour, talisman of saphery, warden + son of nagarythe.
Thats what? 17 s6 attacks with ASF. then if there is anything left i have 11+d6 combat res. yeh thats just not ok. oh yeh, and the spears have heavy armour. (and my other core is shadow warriors, and the rest of my army is stuff to get the super speras into combat)

[GobbladasSquig]

Well, yeah, but that's still a pretty sucky death star because it's slow and doesn't participate in any other phase other than close combat.

Maybe you should consider a 0-1 to some of the choices, or possible a cost system that punishes double/treble-choices.

[Seredain]

Maybe you should consider a 0-1 to some of the choices, or possible a cost system that punishes double/treble-choices.

Any specific ideas on this?

Geoguswrek,

Hmm... okay some fixes still needed...

'Son of Nagarythe'- would anyone take it if it was 15 points just for hatred? Anything else we could think of to make it slightly more interesting? I'm happy to lose core shadow warriors.

'Warden'- I really like this honour. It's about organisation and it's a boost to the fluffiest unit we have. Elfy things. At first it it made spear units receiving a charge harder to hit, but this was silly. A boost to combat res. makes sense for a super-drilled unit that fluffwise is typically outnumbered.

I'll have to add in an important point which I should have specified earlier: if two models in a unit have 'Warden', the unit still only gets +1 CR- the honours are not cumulative. I'll edit the OP.

'Well Versed'- would increasing this honour to 15/20 pts make it fairer? I'll add that amendment (15) in for the moment.


Cheers,

S.

[Marinero]

Hey Seredain,

You have some very good ideas here.

I like most of them. I particularly like the notion, that characters with certain honours would make 1 special unit core. This is very fluffy, I think.

You have an honour that makes a prince a swordmaster (aka saphery), a white lion (aka Chrace), a phoenix guard (special). You have a caledor honour and one for nagarythe as well as one for Ethaine and Ellyrion. WHy don't you consider that when the general has one of these honours, a single special unit of the province/honour becomes core, in addition to the other perks tha honour has.

You can add an honour for tyranoc - i.e a character must be mounted on a TC chariot. His chariot cannot be destroyed by S7 hits, instead it takes normal damage. If this seems inappropriate, then perhaps the character could re-roll impact hits, or something else that may be suitabel. In addition, if your general has this honour, you can take one TC as a core choice.

Also an upgrade for the 'Rider of Caledor' - instead of making it noble only, you can make it dual - if taken by a noble it does what you have currently suggested, if taken by a prince, then the prince and dragon are immune to psychology.

It would be very fluffy to have the General modify slightly the army.

I have one very important suggestion, that I feel that it alone could chage the poor core section of our army.

Change spears as follows:
warriors - 6 points, light armour and shield. One can buy heavy armour for 1 point. Spears for +2 points. Halberd for +1 point. Great weapon for +3 points. Any unit of warriors may carry a magic banner of up to 25 points And voila, suddenly we would have the ability to customize our core selection to fit most tastes.

And the fact remains that our models will be T3 elfs with low armour, so they would not be too strong or unbalanced

[J_Master]

Instead of making some honors allow you to take a special unit for core, have one special unit not take up a special slot. That way we won't see anymore core sillyness.

Good job on the brainstorming!

[geoguswrek]

Maybe you should consider a 0-1 to some of the choices, or possible a cost system that punishes double/treble-choices.

Any specific ideas on this?

Geoguswrek,

Hmm... okay some fixes still needed...

'Son of Nagarythe'- would anyone take it if it was 15 points just for hatred? Anything else we could think of to make it slightly more interesting? I'm happy to lose core shadow warriors.

i like J-Master's suggestion, instead allow them to take one unit as unrestricted, but lets be honest, people already complain about high elves 6 specials, we can't give the option for a seventh. And yes, i'd take it for just hatred (especially on a dragon). on making it more fluffy, maybe allow them to take a unit of super shadow warriors? with bs5 or 2 attacks or something?

'Warden'- I really like this honour. It's about organisation and it's a boost to the fluffiest unit we have. Elfy things. At first it it made spear units receiving a charge harder to hit, but this was silly. A boost to combat res. makes sense for a super-drilled unit that fluffwise is typically outnumbered.

I'll have to add in an important point which I should have specified earlier: if two models in a unit have 'Warden', the unit still only gets +1 CR- the honours are not cumulative. I'll edit the OP.

yeh that was basically my point.

'Well Versed'- would increasing this honour to 15/20 pts make it fairer? I'll add that amendment (15) in for the moment.

10 did seem a little low, 15 might be ok. i don't know either way.
Cheers,

S.

[Crawd]

Change spears as follows:
warriors - 6 points, light armour and shield. One can buy heavy armour for 1 point. Spears for +2 points. Halberd for +1 point. Great weapon for +3 points. Any unit of warriors may carry a magic banner of up to 25 points And voila, suddenly we would have the ability to customize our core selection to fit most tastes.

Why don't give them 4+ Ward, KB, Terror, D3 wounds, each successful wounds gives them +1A and +1A when charged while you're at it?

6 points warriors that comes with light armour shield, ASF is way too cheesy and the options makes them even cheesier.

I wonder when I'll read a serious revision that sound fair and square...

[geoguswrek]

Change spears as follows:
warriors - 6 points, light armour and shield. One can buy heavy armour for 1 point. Spears for +2 points. Halberd for +1 point. Great weapon for +3 points. Any unit of warriors may carry a magic banner of up to 25 points And voila, suddenly we would have the ability to customize our core selection to fit most tastes.

Why don't give them 4+ Ward, KB, Terror, D3 wounds, each successful wounds gives them +1A and +1A when charged while you're at it?

6 points warriors that comes with light armour shield, ASF is way too cheesy and the options makes them even cheesier.

I wonder when I'll read a serious revision that sound fair and square...

on normal warriors asf is pointless. completely and utterly useless unless you happen to be fighting a woodelf player. 8 points with spears and asf is about right, 9 was maybe slightly too much. 9 with greatweapons is also fine, they only have one attack for goodness sake. for 80 points you can get marauders with greatweapons and MoK which, by the by, is better.
Seriously, what is the actual problem with these?
the ones you suggested however would be a little overcosted for 6 points each

[a18no]

You see no problem??

Ok here an exemple:

Archmage, full upgrade, 360 pts
Mage full upgrade, 185
Noble BSB, 168

2 Bolt Trower, 200pts (one mage each)
2 Eagle, 100 pts

For 2000 pts game, i have 1077 pts left.
So:
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts

21 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW, Full Cmdt, 235 pts (noble in here)

So i'm at 1998 pts

No problem??
We play tomorrow!!

[Seredain]

Yeah, that's a bit mental. Not fluffy at least. I don't think great weapons belong in High Elf core. Swords could have a place, though they shouldn't be 'more core' than spears. Currently I'm looking at:

Tower Guard

Professional full-time soldiers, used to hold fortifications and escort nobility through the more perilous parts of the land. They fight with swords as their small numbers and fortified garrisons typically do not allow for the deep formations favoured by spearmen.

WS5, Swords, Heavy Armour, Shields, 9 points. Core choice. Only one unit per unit of archers, spearmen or seaguard.

Elven Veterans

Though most High Elf citizens are spared the horrors of war for at least part of each year, there are those who have, by necessity, given their lives over to service of the Pheonix King. In the wild lands of the North the need for figthing forces has been so great that certain levies have been waging war for decades on end. Now they are professional soldiers in all but name, though pride in their achievements is tainted by the knowledge that it may be many years before they see their families again.

One unit of Spearmen or Seaguard in your army may be upgraded to Elven Veterans: +1 points per spearman and +2 points per seaguard model. Elven Veterans have WS 5 (spears), and WS 5 & BS 5 (seaguard). Edit: Neither will contribute to your army's minimum core requirement. Veteran Seaguard are a special choice.


That's a quick stab at some more flexible but fluffy core choices. Any thoughts?

I've a couple of tweaks to do for the 'Son of Nag.' and 'Champ. of Caledor' honours, but I'll add these later.


Cheers,

S.

[Marinero]

You see no problem??

Ok here an exemple:

Archmage, full upgrade, 360 pts
Mage full upgrade, 185
Noble BSB, 168

2 Bolt Trower, 200pts (one mage each)
2 Eagle, 100 pts

For 2000 pts game, i have 1077 pts left.
So:
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts

21 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW, Full Cmdt, 235 pts (noble in here)

So i'm at 1998 pts

No problem??
We play tomorrow!!

What exactly is is your problem? This army, that you have listed will suffer terribly against fear/terror causing enemies, magic, and fast moving lists. So yes, I would love to play you if we could

[GobbladasSquig]

Maybe you should consider a 0-1 to some of the choices, or possible a cost system that punishes double/treble-choices.

Any specific ideas on this?

Well, I do hate 0-1 limits on fluffy stuff because it sucks in bigger games. So perhaps simply do it like the bretonnian virtues do; first time - no penalty, same virtue on a second character - double price, third time - treble price. This would technically allow doubles on the bigger honours (Swordmaster, Chosen of Asuryan, Defender of the PC) and trebles on the cheaper ones, although at a formidably worse price ratio. Otherwise there is very little reason not to take a cost efficient honour on each character.

[Marinero]

Why don't give them 4+ Ward, KB, Terror, D3 wounds, each successful wounds gives them +1A and +1A when charged while you're at it?

6 points warriors that comes with light armour shield, ASF is way too cheesy and the options makes them even cheesier.

I wonder when I'll read a serious revision that sound fair and square...

I sense .. Irony.. Even sarcasm.. A pinch of bitterness..

You know that anger leads to the dark side, don't you?

It is an idea thread.. People are free to post their thoughts. If you do not have to like mine, but I would advise you to take your sarcasm and shove it you know where.

Maybe the points cost of 6points for a T3, AS5+/4+ ASF warrior is too much. This is OK. The cost could be 7 points. Or 8..

The principle is important. Having core warriors who could be customized with a hand weapon+shield, spear+shield, halberd or great weapon is an excellent idea to diversify the HE core selection.

It would also be a shrewd piece of business by GW, because this would allow them to make a new multi-part plastic box, and a ton of players will buy such boxes, as each HE player has a ton of ideas how the high elves 'should be really played'.

And believe me, there is nothing cheesy in a T3 AS5+ HE warrior with GW that cost 10 points even with ASF. A Marauder of Chaos with GW and HA costs 6 points. You can mark the regiment to Khorne, and get immune to psychology and +1A that on a regiment of 15 warriors would give an average cost of 1 point per model.

15 Marauders, heavy armour, great weapon, FC, mark of Khorn - 125points.. Now this is a scary little regiment..

And so on.

Black guards that are stubborn, ItP, 2A, S4, eternal hatred cost 13 points, and no one lifts an eyebrow. Suddenly, a 10 points ASF GW HE with no additional perks is "SOOOO BLOOODY CHEESY'

Give me a break

[geoguswrek]

You see no problem??

Ok here an exemple:

Archmage, full upgrade, 360 pts
Mage full upgrade, 185
Noble BSB, 168

2 Bolt Trower, 200pts (one mage each)
2 Eagle, 100 pts

For 2000 pts game, i have 1077 pts left.
So:
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts
14 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW 140pts

21 Warriors, Heavy Armor, GW, Full Cmdt, 235 pts (noble in here)

So i'm at 1998 pts

No problem??
We play tomorrow!!

yeh sure, i'll play that, i'll win too, the only real problem is th BSB, which can be killed off easily. Also you are foolish enough to put mages in warmachines, so i'm glad to pla against it.

[Crawd]

Marinero:

About what I said, it was sarcasm and for leading to the dark side, sorry but my primary army is Dark Elves But I admit that the Hydra's price isn't fair and the Pendant is also too cheap for his strenght but I can play against them.

If you want a unit like you want, they should be in Special not in the core section. And I see nothing wrong the the marauders, you charge them and they're falling easily, because they don't have ASF and they Strike last in the following rounds.

On the other hands, Spearelves have ASF, so if you give them a GWS, a Heavy armor and a shield, what a godly unit for how much? 10 points each.

What a deal for cheesy core unit. With this unit you have:

- 6A S3 ASF with 4+AS / 3+ AS (Hand weapon + Shield)
- 6A S5 ASF with 5+ AS (GW)

No I'm not buying that to be none cheesy. For your information, the Black Guards were called cheesy a couple of time, so please, don't say this kind of stuff.

ASF is a huge turning point that you have to think before thinking any changes. I do agree that spearelves are too costy but they shouldn't cost 9 points for heavy armor, sheild, spear, ASF, fight in 3 ranks.

If you're seeing no problem with your suggestion, take a step back and look at your suggestion as a non-HE player.

PS: If it's an idea thread, then it should be in the Idea Forum

[Marinero]

@Crawd

You see, it is all a matter of perspective. You think spears are cheasy for 9 points. I think that they are below par mediocre unit, that can be hugely improved by a BSB with GW. However, then it costs around 400 points, and even then, the special choices are better price performance.

I personally have never said that DE are cheesy. Hell, I even consider the VC a normal army. I admit, that I am not so generous towards the DoC though...

So, no, I cannot agree that a T3 AS5+ unit with a GW and one attack, for 10 points is cheesy in the current WHFB environment.

And, definitely no, spears cannot be cheesy as they are. They are good againts DE. But against most of the other armies are below average.

[Seredain]

Thanks for the further comments, guys. To keep this on track, would you take a look at 'Tower Guard' and 'Elven Veterans', above? Once I have a few thumbs up for them I'll shove them in the OP Revision.

Edit: Core great weapons aren't happening, I'm afraid! I won't argue over whether they're game-breaking or not, but core great weaps just isn't high elves, at least for the purposes of this revision.

Please also note the ammendments to Son of Nag. and Champ. of Caledor honours. SoN can't ride a dragon- he might be able to get hold of a mountainous griffon up where he lives, but there's no way he's laying his hands on Caledor's finest- I don't think the natives would trust him enough, and the dragons are probably too wise to be filled with hate. Plus if he could ride a dragon, we'd see Nagarythe Star Dragon riders everywhere! You know it's true.

For Champion of Caledor, I've added a Prince version of the honour. Check it out.

Cheers,

S.

[Crawd]

So, no, I cannot agree that a T3 AS5+ unit with a GW and one attack, for 10 points is cheesy in the current WHFB environment.

T3 AS5+ with GW and 1A for 10 points, I have nothing against that, but I have something against T3 AS5+ with GW, 1A with ASF for 10 points.

ASF can be gamebreaking and, by doing this, you'll never see Pheonix Guards, White Lions and Swordmasters anymore, because "Uber SpearElves" will be able to do the same role. Maybe not the Pheonix Guards but I'm 100% sure that White Lions and Swordmasters will be tossed away by doing so.

[Marinero]

@ Crawd...

So - a chaso marauder, who is T3, AS5+ with great weapon, that costs 6 points is equal to a HE who also has T3, AS5+ and a great weapon for 10 points. 6=10.. Nicely done.. Are you a financial guy, by any chance

High elves should be 4 points more expensive of same chaos marauder for just being HE??? Really? You positive? No trace of DE prejudice? None?

I feel that +4 point per model for ASF is a good price

[Telephalsion]

While you say core great weapons is not an option, what about having great weapons avaliable to veteran regiments? And extending the veteran rule to archers and tower guard?

Elite spears gain more WS
Elite Archers gain more BS
Elite Seaguard gain both
Elite tower guard gains great weapons?

Elite Silver Helms aswell perhaps?

[geoguswrek]

HIGH ELF HONOURS – inc fluff.

The Honours System and Magic Items

Lord choices may take up to 2 honours, combined with magic items for a total of no more than 120 points.

Hero choices may take 1 honour, combined with magic items for a total of no more than 60 points.


Prince and Noble Honours


Swordmaster - 40 points

Trained at the White Tower, this elf has dedicated his considerable lifespan to all the arts and weapons of combat. This elite warrior will exploit any weakness shown by his opponent, and any chink in armour. Truly he is one of the finest fighters in all Ulthuan.

The character gains +1 Weapon Skill. In addition, he has the "Killing Blow" special rule. Unless he has the 'Horsemaster' honour, the character must fight on foot. Note that he may take a magic weapon or any mundane weapon of his choice, though he may not take a lance. Note also that any weapons taken by the character must be paid for separately as usual.

this is basically ok, you do have the option for 7 attacks with killing blow, which is ok, but not amazing.
Chosen of Asuryan - 40 points

A favoured disciple of the lord of the gods, the eyes of this warrior glow with holy fire, and he carries with him the deathly silence of the enlightened.

The character has a 4+ ward save, and causes fear. He may not be the army's general.

this will be quite fun, i think it'll be quite popular on the bsb since it 1) makes the bsb harder to kill (without stopping him taking a banner i assume?) 2) makes the unit he is in immune to fear 3) the general thing don't matter.

Defender of the Pheonix Crown - 40 points

This warrior has sworn to defend Ulthuan and the Pheonix Crown to the death. He and his followers will not leave the field until their task is done.

The character is equipped with a lion cloak. In addition he and any unit he is with count as being Stubborn. When taking break tests the unit may test on the Character's unmodified leadership.

Again this will be fun on the bsb, the stubborn rerolls is pretty good, plus you get the upgrade on armour which is ok. Also, it can be taken on a HE lord on dragon (for stubborn + a great save vs shooting)

Scholar of Saphery - 35 points

This warrior-mage has mastered many of the warlike arts, and to him magic is as much of a tool of war as the sword or spear.

The character counts as a level 1 mage. He may not wear any armour.

this is a bit of a let down without the old drain magic. can we bring that back...

Horsemaster of Ellyrion - 15 points

This elf has spent centuries living, training and fighting in the saddle. Fighting from horseback is as natural to him as fighting on foot.

The character must ride an elven steed or barded elven steed. The character has 360 degree line of sight for the purposes of shooting only. Furthermore he may shoot any missile weapons he carries even if he marches during that turn's movement phase, just like a unit of light cavalry. Note that the character still suffers -1 to hit when moving as per usual.

this is better, but i don't really see it getting much game time

Champion of Caledor - 15 points

This warrior carries the pride of his land at the point of a lance. Where others falter, he will lead the charge for the glory of Caledor Dragontamer.

The character with this honour must be mounted and armed with a mundane or magical lance. A Noble with this honour may ride a sun dragon for + 230 points. Any dragon ridden by a Prince with this honour may re-roll twice on the monster reaction table should the character be slain. The controlling player decides which result to choose.

the noble one is ok, but not amazing, the prince one isn't gonna get played much (15 points for something that only matters when the prince dies?)

Son of Nagarythe - 15 points

With his land ravaged and his people scattered, this elf has known nothing but war. He leads the fight as Ulthuan's first line of defence.

The character has the special rule "Nagarythe Hatred". If he is the army general then the army must contain at least two units of shadow warriors, regardless of army size. The character may not ride a dragon, but may ride any other mount of his choosing.

This is just plain amazing, the shadow warriors thing is a good limitation though, since you mostly want it on your lord choice.

Merchant Prince of Lothern - 10 points

This Prince wields political power in the wealthiest city in the world. His personal fortune is such that his retinues are made up of the finest soldiers available, and his armoury contains impressive collections comprising some of Ulthuan's most powerful items of war.

Only a Prince may have this honour. The character may take no other honours but instead may add an additional 20 points to his magic items allowance, up to a total of 120 points. In addition, where he is the army general, any Silver Helms under his command will count as core rather than special unit choices.

this will get played quite a bit i think. on a dragon

Warden of the Northern Marches - 10 points

This elf hails from the wild shores of Chrace, Cothique or Northern Yvresse, lands under constant threat of attack from dark elf raiders and the human hordes. Too distant to be readily reinforced by the elite forces of the more powerful cities, the citizens of the region's fortified coastal towns have learned to fend for themselves. Their leaders are amongst the most rigorous drillmasters in Ulthuan, able to create and command the most disciplined of the citizen levies.

Character on foot only. Any unit of spear-armed High Elf infantry joined by the character generates +1 combat resolution during the close combat phase. Note that this bonus is not cumulative. If multiple characters with this honour join the unit it will still gain only +1 combat resolution.

this makes the spears almost playable. i'd consider this on a bsb as well. So you have given lots of options for a bsb.

[Crawd]

Name MV WS BS S T W I A LD
Marauder 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7
Spearman 5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8

4 points isn't only for ASF, we're also talkng about: +1M, +1I and +1LD. Like it or not, you're also paying for fighting in 3 ranks and ASF and for the useless +1 BS.

[Marinero]

So here's the revision I've been working on so long. I've play tested a variety of the options below against Orcs and Goblins (who got a few revisions of their own), new Lizards, Empire, Wood Elves and Vampires. In the end? ASF had to stay- it's very High Elfy, simple- I just think it works. The changes I've made below are so we can field a fluffy and competitive army without having to rely on the dragon.

Also, these changes should allow our characters to match Dwarf Lords in a straight fight, which they should be able to do, without making them all-round gods. Many abilities are useful but limited, or affect elven troops/unit selection rather than boost the character himself. Some are elven fighting specialities which you'll be familiar with: when it comes to fighting skill we should be up there with the best. Our magic has received a significant boost just by increasing our available options and combos, but I've kept it strictly fluffy and you'll have to pay for it...

Note that the amount of points a character can spend on honours/items has gone up slightly (though not to Dwarf levels). This is because the HE 'cheaper items' gimmick is mostly just an illusion when it comes to our unique items. I've drawn up some new items but haven't had time to type them up yet. These will be forthcoming. Current items which match the description of some of the honours below will be removed from the list and replaced with new ones. Our weapons selection will be improved slightly.

Please have a read and let me know what you think.

Cheers,

S.


HIGH ELF ARMY LIST – amendments

Speed of Asuryan

Stays exactly the same with the following exception: all High Elf models will lose their ASF against enemy models who have charged them in the flank or rear. After that turn, however, the elves are said to have turned to face their attackers and so regain their ASF. This represents the fact that, while a prepared elven line will attack first at its chargers, it won't be able to if hit from an unexpected angle. IMO our opponents should be rewarded for pulling off a flank/rear charge. This limitation does not apply to skirmishers or characters on foot (unless they are part of a ranked unit).

Interesting point you make. I do not not agree with you, but agree in principle, that the idea is worth considering. However, in one of the FAQ it was clearly stated that an ASF character/unit always counts as ASF even attacked from behind. So are you suggesting an overall nerf of the ASF rule, or only a High elf specific nerf? Would a DE unit with an assassin that is charged in the rear be allowed to have the assasing to charge first or not? Would a greater daemon of slaanesh, that is attacked in the flank or rear be able to strike first or not? If the above two examples have a'Yes' anser, but HE ASF would be nerfed, I feel that the cost of HE units should be reduced to reflect the nerf. I.e 2 points for special infantry, 1 point for core infantry, some points for cavalry, chariots, characters. That would be fair

Characters

High Elf fighting characters (and all other elf characters btw) have +1 attack. Nobles have 4 attacks, Princes have 5. This is what happens when you're preternaturally quick, preternaturally skilled and have been fighting for almost a thousand years. 1 more weapon skill than a 35 year-old human for -1 toughness doesn't cut it IMO.

Good idea


Points. High Elf fighting characters cost an additional 5 points. Mages and archmages cost 5 points less than they currently do.

Fair point on fighting characters. However, I feel that something should be done for the mages, to not be left behind in the revision.

Troops

Spearmen - now cost 8 points per model. They can upgrade to heavy armour for +1 point per model.

Very nice

Archers - now cost 10 points per model. Light armour +2 points per model. Shoot in 2 ranks.

Finally

Silver Helms - now cost 20 points per model, and come armed with lance, heavy armour, shield, elven steed. Barding is optional and costs +2 points per model.

They should be able to take a magic standard. Also their WS should be 5. Maybe keep their current cost or 1 point more

Swordmasters - now have I6. Remember that stuff in the last rulebook about the fabled warriors of Hoeth being able to cut a candle without disturbing the flame? If any troops in Ulthuan have high initiative, these guys should. I'm not hitting out at Black Guard, I just think this feels right for the best fighters in Ulthuan. It also makes up for the above nerf to ASF.

OK. Have in mind, that with the ASFD nerf that you suggest, their cost should be altered => down
White Lions – their cloaks are now the exact equivalent of Sea Dragon cloaks, ie +2 AS vs shooting, +1 AS in combat. This fits their role as heavy, strong, last stand axemen, as well as the great new illustrations for WAR.

Shadow Warriors - now come equipped with extra hand weapons.

Finally

Dragons - Sun Dragons' fire now has a strength of 3 (2 from any dragon is laughable!). Moon Dragons' breath is Str 4. Star Dragons' fire is now Str 4 and armour piercing. Star Dragons now cost 380 rather than 370 points.

Very nice

Now for the juicy part!

HIGH ELF HONOURS – inc fluff.

All elves are immensely long-lived, some say immortal, and when they devote their time and peculiar powers of concentration to a task, they grow to master it beyond the capability of lesser races. The deeply engrained discipline of the High Elves of Ulthuan has created a generation of warriors with truly legendary talents. Their achievements are readily hailed by elven society as a source of inspiration, and perhaps the best hope that their land and people can be saved and reborn.

The Honours System and Magic Items

Lord choices may take up to 2 honours, combined with magic items for a total of no more than 120 points.

Hero choices may take 1 honour, combined with magic items for a total of no more than 60 points.

Nice


Prince and Noble Honours


Swordmaster - 40 points

Trained at the White Tower, this elf has dedicated his considerable lifespan to all the arts and weapons of combat. This elite warrior will exploit any weakness shown by his opponent, and any chink in armour. Truly he is one of the finest fighters in all Ulthuan.

The character gains +1 Weapon Skill. In addition, he has the "Killing Blow" special rule. Unless he has the 'Horsemaster' honour, the character must fight on foot. Note that he may take a magic weapon or any mundane weapon of his choice, though he may not take a lance. Note also that any weapons taken by the character must be paid for separately as usual.

OK. I do think that this honour should allow the HE to field one unit of SM as core if this honour is taken by the Army general

Chosen of Asuryan - 40 points

A favoured disciple of the lord of the gods, the eyes of this warrior glow with holy fire, and he carries with him the deathly silence of the enlightened.

The character has a 4+ ward save, and causes fear. He may not be the army's general.

Good concept, though this should be extended that Caradryan also cannot be the army general. I had a good laugh imagining Caradryan trying to explain the battle plan to his captains, or giving orders during the battle .

Defender of the Pheonix Crown - 40 points

This warrior has sworn to defend Ulthuan and the Pheonix Crown to the death. He and his followers will not leave the field until their task is done.

The character is equipped with a lion cloak. In addition he and any unit he is with count as being Stubborn. When taking break tests the unit may test on the Character's unmodified leadership.

Very nice. Again, consider a unit of WL as core if taken on General

Scholar of Saphery - 35 points

This warrior-mage has mastered many of the warlike arts, and to him magic is as much of a tool of war as the sword or spear.

The character counts as a level 1 mage. He may not wear any armour.

This bit with the armour is obsolete. Also, the fact that the character does not have armour makes it totally useless. If taken on general, a unit of swordmaster could be taken as core (this one or swordmaster, not both though )

Horsemaster of Ellyrion - 15 points

This elf has spent centuries living, training and fighting in the saddle. Fighting from horseback is as natural to him as fighting on foot.

The character must ride an elven steed or barded elven steed. The character has 360 degree line of sight for the purposes of shooting only. Furthermore he may shoot any missile weapons he carries even if he marches during that turn's movement phase, just like a unit of light cavalry. Note that the character still suffers -1 to hit when moving as per usual.

Does not seem very useful, but it may find some fans, I guess. Again - a unit of ER as core if taken on the general

Champion of Caledor - 15 points

This warrior carries the pride of his land at the point of a lance. Where others falter, he will lead the charge for the glory of Caledor Dragontamer.

The character with this honour must be mounted and armed with a mundane or magical lance. A Noble with this honour may ride a sun dragon for + 230 points. Any dragon ridden by a Prince with this honour may re-roll twice on the monster reaction table should the character be slain. The controlling player decides which result to choose.

OK

Son of Nagarythe - 15 points

With his land ravaged and his people scattered, this elf has known nothing but war. He leads the fight as Ulthuan's first line of defence.

The character has the special rule "Nagarythe Hatred". If he is the army general then the army must contain at least two units of shadow warriors, regardless of army size. The character may not ride a dragon, but may ride any other mount of his choosing.

Pretty useless as it is, IMO..But I guess not everything in an AB has to be really good, right

Merchant Prince of Lothern - 10 points

This Prince wields political power in the wealthiest city in the world. His personal fortune is such that his retinues are made up of the finest soldiers available, and his armoury contains impressive collections comprising some of Ulthuan's most powerful items of war.

Only a Prince may have this honour. The character may take no other honours but instead may add an additional 20 points to his magic items allowance, up to a total of 120 points. In addition, where he is the army general, any Silver Helms under his command will count as core rather than special unit choices.

OK


Warden of the Northern Marches - 10 points

This elf hails from the wild shores of Chrace, Cothique or Northern Yvresse, lands under constant threat of attack from dark elf raiders and the human hordes. Too distant to be readily reinforced by the elite forces of the more powerful cities, the citizens of the region's fortified coastal towns have learned to fend for themselves. Their leaders are amongst the most rigorous drillmasters in Ulthuan, able to create and command the most disciplined of the citizen levies.

Character on foot only. Any unit of spear-armed High Elf infantry joined by the character generates +1 combat resolution during the close combat phase. Note that this bonus is not cumulative. If multiple characters with this honour join the unit it will still gain only +1 combat resolution.

Good


Archmage and Mage Honours


Seer – 30 points

The winds of magic hold no mysteries for this mage. You know the score...

Archmage only. The character may choose his spells at the beginning of the game rather than rolling for them.

OK

Wise – 20 points

The most important lesson taught to the students of High Magic is that the winds of magic flow from the Realm of Chaos. This mage knows that magic is a danger before it is a weapon and constantly arms himself against the worst excesses of his craft.

The mage ignores the effects of his first miscast. Note that the miscast spell still fails as it usually would in the event of a miscast.

OK

Master of Winds – 15 points

One of those High Elves who has mastered that path of High Magic first trodden by the Heroes of the Dead Isle, this mage gathers the winds of magic with ease, sweeping aside the lesser spells of his enemies.

This mage generates 1 additional dispel dice during your opponent's magic phase.

Nice, though I would prefer a power dice - can you make something about it

Channeller – 10 points

The High Elves are the most learned of spellcasters, able to craft the most complex spells with ease.

The mage may use one additional dice to cast his spells than normal. A level 2 mage may use 4 dice to cast a spell, a level 3 may use 5 dice and so on.

Nice

Well Versed – 15 points

This mage has spent his life learning all of the magical arts to the point where he no longer sees the distinction between the colours.

The mage may swap one spell he rolls for before the game with the first level spell from any lore available to him, rather than from the first spell of his chosen lore as usual. If he rolls a first level spell from his chosen lore then he may only swap this spell.

I am not sure I understand what you mean here

Whisperer – 10 points

This mage communicates with the beasts of the world as if he were in conversation with any other elf.

Mages with this honour may ride a Great Eagle for +50 points. Archmages with this honour may ride a Griffon for +200 points or a Star Dragon for +380 points.

Huzzaah!

Disciple of the Martial Arts – 10 points

The Tower of Hoeth is a place as famed for the achievements of its fighting scholars as much as for its mages. This mage supplements his magical studies with training in the arts of battle.

Any mage with this honour gains +1 attack and +1 weapon skill. Furthermore, he may now be equipped with a spear, halberd, extra hand weapon or great weapon for same points cost as the equivalent fighting character. If he carries any of these weapons he may not be equipped with any magic item designated as a 'staff' or 'wand'.

Very good!!!