The new lizzardmen army book - a huge disappointment for me

[babalubeaga]

I agree they are and will be making a comeback. A block of 12 now is better than a 6th edition block of 18 and assuming the extra 6 attacks can get at least 1 more kill they provide more CR also. You are now getting a lot more firepower in a smaller unit and saving at least 60 or more points (probably more like 70-80 when you consider the point drop and the lost rank) and at least breaking even if not gaining CR.
There is noting not to like about LM7 saurus, unless 2 attacks in 2 ranks 4S, 4T is boring, somehow?

[Rhawtir]

I think the new lizards seem to work pretty fine on the battlefield really The games I've played against them they've always ditched out some good bashing, managed to solid the new warriors of chaos with no problem at all.
I think they are more fun than before, really..
I love the new/old drop rocks thing for the terradons

[Lord Anathir]

lizardmen had a few minor things changed. They are still a heavy shooty, heavy magic monster list that gets the benefits of being nearly impossible to break and leadership check reliability without the downside of being immune to psychology. Engine of the Gods is very very good.

[Gondarion]

Marin, I also have considerable dislike for the new list, but for completely different reasons. First and foremost is the increase in emphasis on gimmicks, particularly the ridiculous idea of a special slot stegadon. A basic army list which can be made up almost entirely of large monsters is a terrible thing for the basic spirit and appeal of the game. furthermore, its only at all effective against the armies which suffer against psychology, which have been destroyed by the recent run of books.

They also doubled down on their stupid saurus rules. The unit should have been radically rewritten, even if it changes the fluff (full disclosure: I hate the lizardmen background).

* Carnosaurus is now better, by not being a large target, and dealing D3 wounds to all targerts. Still, it gets eaten by the bloodthirster for breakfast and is usually not enough for him..

Since when should a carnosaur be able o beat a blood thirster? The points differential is pretty big isn't it, and it should really be bigger because the blood thirster is massively undercosted, all told.

Slann. Period - total nerf. They arguably made it possible to field a cheaper slann, but there is nothing that can match price/performance of a previous 4th genreation slann

I also dislike the way the slann was written, but thats largely because of how ovanilla and over-simplified they made it. Personally, I'd argue the newer slann is better for the points, its so much cheaper. they really should have kept lore mixing though, that was so cool.

*

Sacred spawnings - total nerf. Result => characters are much weaker than they used to be.

Along with removing generations as the upgrade mechanic, removing sacred spawnings drains a whole lot of the army's character and image. That said, saurus characters (particularly the oldblood) were way, way, way too good for the points.

Skinks.. Total nerf, mainly because we cannot field them as scouts.

And a well deserved one at that, I don't know how anyone can think the old mechanic for skinks wasn't one of the worst things in Warhammer. I concede removing the ability of scouting compeltely could be construed as a bit much, but I'm generally for it. Most armies should not have core scouts, period, probably none should.

I tend yo agree with you on kroxigors, but the jusry is still out I think> Massed S7 monsters is a bit cheesy, but why single Lizardmen out?

*

Terradons got nerfed - they lost the hit-and-run rule for a stupid quasi fast cavalry rule. Also, the attacks of the skink are separate from these of the terradon, meaning that the model has 1 S3 and 2 S4 attacks.. Brilliant. Ah, yes, there is the fly through woods thing, which is SOOO good

Are you serious? The new terradons are incredibly good, read any battle report and its quickly evident that they're a wonderfully obnoxious unit. Drop rocks is changing the makeup of so many lizardmen armies on warhammer.org.uk and elsewhere, its a brilliant rule.

*

Salamanders got more expensive, and less killy.. Good job.

I know you're being sarcastic, but salamanders were a disgusting blight on the game, and this change is the absolute best change they could have made. We'll never see eye to eye on thi, I'm afraid.

*

The razordons are more expensive, and also less killy. The model looks cool though

Yeah, they seem a sad waste, considering the model. They should have made it a combat beast rather than the stupid rules they wrote for them.

-

No more jaguar saurus (unless you are regualrly playing idiots)

Not necessarily, Lizardmen can still produce a very daunting spell assault, this could easily get lost in the shuffle, so to speak.


Marin, you're a great guy, but selling all your stuff so quickly makes me think you're really way too much of a power-gamer. That just bemuses me, why not play with some form of house rules instead? Much more sensible than selling your beloved army.

[Gondarion]

To elucidate my comment on Saurus warriors, here is something I wrote on another forum a month or so back.

As some of you know, I admit to having somewhat of a negative bias against Lizardmen, largely to my dislike of the whole Old Ones/Slann motif. I also have expressed a great deal of indignation over at TWF over some of the new rules, such as the option to take 8 Stegadons in a 2K game, which I still think is another disastrous pandering to rich kids and another major punch in the gut to the notion of Warhammer as a game of armies. In general, it seems to me that GW thinking with this army was "hey, its dinosaurs, lets really make it for the kids. Lets have a monster mash, special characters who are more encouraged and fully integrated into the army than ever before and give them cheesy names". And they did just that.

Yet this thread isn't really about that. Most people who read WHF forums know saurus warriors have been bitched about being lousy as much as any unit in the game, despite actually appearing very good on paper for the points. The new list has them reduced in cost by 2, regular 2A (even in the 2nd rank with spears!) and gives them a 5+ scaly skin save, though they lose spawnings without special characters. Some have bitched and moaned, probably correctly, that this further screws their increasingly feeble core infantry, which was revised a few books ago (Empire, high elves, etc). Yet others, most of them Lizardmen players, have continued to insist that they suck.

How could this possibly be, with everything they've gained? They do appear brutally good for the points, especially against other infantry (sigh...). Yet, the problem has never been any lack of power or resilience, especially with the (editorial point: DUMB!) cold-blooded rule. The problem is, like other infantry, being M4 and stuck in the dreaded rank and file formation. This is exacerbated by the speed and aggressiveness of the rest of the army (although stegadons, which themselves are actually somewhat slow for the army, could be combined in bulk solely with saurus warrior blocks now, for a fairlys low and hitty army). saurus warriors are very nearly as good as chaos warriors for something like 5 points less per model, and still...umm....suck. Well, being rank and file in warhammer is a dastardly fate it seems.

This is classic GW, making big fundamental mistakes, then trying to patch the problem by addressing something else. Within the context of the lizardmen book only, this is making an already strong and tough yet too slow to fit in unit....more strong and tough. Maybe the answer lies in stopping this infantry arms creep nonsense, and actually making them fit the army? Remove some of the extra power, give them something like Reliable/Dimwitted: may not be marchblocked from outside of 2" away, and instead give them/allow them to buy better speed. If saurus warriors were about what they are in the current (not upcoming) list, but had M5/6, they'd suddenly fit the aggressive image of the rest of the army, which to me is much more fitting of a repilian jungle force. And while saurus warriors may not be the most dexterous or quick-witted of beings, I'd bet they could build up quite alot of speed crashing through the jungles of Lustria.

[Marinero]

Hi Simeon, I am pleased to see you - long time since we were last in touch.

Here are my answers to your points:

First and foremost is the increase in emphasis on gimmicks, particularly the ridiculous idea of a special slot stegadon. A basic army list which can be made up almost entirely of large monsters is a terrible thing for the basic spirit and appeal of the game. furthermore, its only at all effective against the armies which suffer against psychology, which have been destroyed by the recent run of books.

This is one of the major conerns that I had with the new book. I am frustrated that all that gave flavours to the Lizzardmen (IMHO of course) like spawnings, generations, kroxigor-skink special relations demonstrated via the charge through skinks, etc., etc. was scrapped. Then a very cheeasy and easily abusable, yet bland and boring alternative in the face of multi-stegadon spam is introduced. I detaste being insulted in this way and trying to be lured to buy 2-4 more stegadons.

Btw, I do not think that stagadon spam is particularly dangerous, as with HE and WE I have no problem beating such lists. I had a game this weekend against a LM list, he had an engine of the gods with ancient steg, another ancient steg and a normal steg. I won, and mind you, my opponent was extremely lucky, but this did not help him. And I used a balanced list with spears, archers, smasters, 2 rbts, 2 ealges, 2 units of DP, 1 chariot of each type, 1 unit of scouts, lvl 4, lvl 2 and a BSB.. No dragons, teclis or ultra magic heavy..

Stegadons are dangerous vs armies like the empire, greenskins and maybe skaven because of the multi terror tests and potentially devastating charges. However, if you charge first, you are likely to win 80+% of the times, as stegs have very limitted damage potential, and vs full CR they struggle. stubborn 6 even of coldblooded is fairly easy to fail..

They also doubled down on their stupid saurus rules. The unit should have been radically rewritten, even if it changes the fluff (full disclosure: I hate the lizardmen background).

Here we are hugely of the mark from each other - I know your dislike of lizzardmen in general, I respect it but I cannot accept most of your arguments against them. I.e I find the cold blooded rule very fluffy and consistent with the LM background, while you dislike it.

Since when should a carnosaur be able o beat a blood thirster? The points differential is pretty big isn't it, and it should really be bigger because the blood thirster is massively undercosted, all told.

True. My point however is, that the carnosaurus does not come alone - it usually brings on an oldblood, and their combined cost comes to 455-470. I guarantee that a naked greater daemon of Khorne, that will charge first because of its fly rule will kill the carnosaurus in his first round of combat, and then it will autobreak the oldblood and run it down. Whether the GDoK is under or over priced is off the point, as it curently exists in the WHFB, and is a factor to consider.

On the side note, the GDoK actually is better than a stardragon and prince, and this is a very scaring fact. We have tested stardragon and prince vs GDoK, and the GDoK wins 4 out of 5 times. And is like 70 points cheaper.

Along with removing generations as the upgrade mechanic, removing sacred spawnings drains a whole lot of the army's character and image. That said, saurus characters (particularly the oldblood) were way, way, way too good for the points.

And a well deserved one at that, I don't know how anyone can think the old mechanic for skinks wasn't one of the worst things in Warhammer. I concede removing the ability of scouting compeltely could be construed as a bit much, but I'm generally for it. Most armies should not have core scouts, period, probably none should.

So your point is skinks and saurus characters were too good, so they deserved the nerf. OK.. If that was the case, why do we not see LM in top 10 in most tournies in the last 2 years? If they were that cheasy, their performance should reflect it. I see tons of daemons, bunches of vampires, many dark elves, a high elf or empire armies here and there. No lizzies though.. Funny, is it not?

I tend yo agree with you on kroxigors, but the jusry is still out I think> Massed S7 monsters is a bit cheesy, but why single Lizardmen out?

Good point here. Many armies have some sort of a S7 attack appart from a S5 great weapon weilding character- the VC the blood knights, Asur - the stardragon, empire - the great cannon, dark elves the assasin with his buffs, beasts - the shaggoth and the dragon ogres (I am not a 100% sure about the dragon ogres having S7 as I do not have the beast army book here, though), most armies army can take a DoW cannon, etc., etc..

But the kroxies got the boot

Are you serious? The new terradons are incredibly good, read any battle report and its quickly evident that they're a wonderfully obnoxious unit. Drop rocks is changing the makeup of so many lizardmen armies on warhammer.org.uk and elsewhere, its a brilliant rule.

Ah, yes, I have heard (well read actually ) this mantra before.. Drop rocks is hugely overrated. And terradons die in droves to even normal S3 missiles. I am not saying that they are terrible. I am saying that they got nerfed in their prime task - character and war machine hunting, because tehy lost 1 S4 attack per model, and the hit and run old rule. You see, drop rocks seems good on paper, until you realize, that it is quite easy to actually not kill the warmachine crew. 4 terradons would give you an average of 8 hits. Randomizing and you get 2,67 hits on the crew. Most of the warmachines have 3 crew member (HE and DE being exception). Against most you will wound on 3+ (4+ for dwarfs). As you can see - you are very, very unlikely to kill a warmachine crew with drop rocks. Previously though, you could dish 9 S4 attacks against the crew with 3 terradons, 12 with 4, 4.5 would hit(or 6), and between 2.25 and 3 (depending on T) would wound (or 3 and 4.5 if you have 4 models). In all cases except for dwarf you had a statistically guaranteed chance to take out the warmachine. Now, explain to me, how are the new rules not a big nerf?

And I will not get started on their utter inability to kill a mage now.. Well, bar very good luck with dice, but I dislike this aspect of evaluating a unit.

I know you're being sarcastic, but salamanders were a disgusting blight on the game, and this change is the absolute best change they could have made. We'll never see eye to eye on thi, I'm afraid.

Justing making them to roll to hit their artillery dice worth of hits would have been a perfectly fine balance.

Not necessarily, Lizardmen can still produce a very daunting spell assault, this could easily get lost in the shuffle, so to speak.

You see, I do not claim that it is impossible to use the jaguar charm. What I said is that now you cannot rely on it. If you plan to use it, but your opponent manages to stop it, then it will 1/ put you to disadvantage as your plan will fait and 2/ you will have lost the element of surprise, and your opponent will consider the potential jaguar charm threat in future magic phases, making it very unlikely for you to cast it successfully.

Marin, you're a great guy, but selling all your stuff so quickly makes me think you're really way too much of a power-gamer. That just bemuses me, why not play with some form of house rules instead? Much more sensible than selling your beloved army

Thanks for your nice word, my friend. Whether I am, or I am not a power gamer, I do not know . I know that I am in the hobby because of the combat aspect of the game as well as the collection aspect, art and fluff aspects, so for sure I am competitive. I know that I had 48 saurus warriors, and that I almost always used 2 block of saurus infantry in the 6th. I also used 1 unit of saurus cavalry and only 1 unit of Kroxigors (check out the model list). I like rules, and I follow the way the game currently is.

For me, the 'feel' of an army is very important. I really, really like the new rules for the DE, but I detaste their fluff, and as such I cannot bring myself to use them. Though I am sure that I could put them to excellent use . Well, at least I am still holding out against temptation

However, it is not impossible that I make a grand helm of Elves in the future and add the DE to my HE and WE collections

[Gondarion]

This is one of the major conerns that I had with the new book. I am frustrated that all that gave flavours to the Lizzardmen (IMHO of course) like spawnings, generations, kroxigor-skink special relations demonstrated via the charge through skinks, etc., etc. was scrapped. Then a very cheeasy and easily abusable, yet bland and boring alternative in the face of multi-stegadon spam is introduced. I detaste being insulted in this way and trying to be lured to buy 2-4 more stegadons.

Bingo, couldn't say it better fromhere because I haven't collected Lizardmen, but this book is indeed an insult to lizardmen players who don't want to have 70% of their army made up of large monsters.

So your point is skinks and saurus characters were too good, so they deserved the nerf. OK.. If that was the case, why do we not see LM in top 10 in most tournies in the last 2 years? If they were that cheasy, their performance should reflect it. I see tons of daemons, bunches of vampires, many dark elves, a high elf or empire armies here and there. No lizzies though.. Funny, is it not?

Daemons (especially) and VC have redefined power these days no doubt, still doesn't mean some things weren't also in the cheese bin. And to clarify, skink hordes weren't as much cheesy as obnoxious as hell, its not for nothing many referred to skink-heavy builds as being 40k armies. Overall, I think core scouting should be phased out of the game.

Saurus characters were simply way undercosted, and hell, you could get an oldblood with 8A really easily, for much cheaper than a chaos lord. I agree, they should have kept spawnings, but oldbloods also should have up in points as a result, they're basically chaos lords for far, far less.

[Ramesesis]

Core scouts removed? Hands OF my asrai scouts, will you!

Are they considered a broken unit? Are they something detestable? No, they are indeed very fluffy and fitting for asrais. Nowadays as your regular Joe mid-tier army, having people saying we got cheesy scouts, when scouts hardly was what people meant when they talked about wood elf cheese in the good old days.

If there is one army that deserves core choice scouts, it is the Wood elves! Grumble...

Wait? Oh no, the Empire got them cheesy huntsmen core choice scouts! Oh no, the most dreaded unit on the gaming board. Run for the hills!
A minimum 10 man BS3 scout unit with nothing but regular bows, and you can only have one of them. How terrifyingly broken...

[Musashi]

I think it should be possible to have a 0-1 core scout choice, since I'd like one for High Elves; it doesn't necessarily have to be eligible as minimum requirement.

[Gondarion]

Core scouts are not a "balance" issue within the current context of the game, but if I were desiging WHf from scratch (which I kind of am...) scounting would be something which is elite by nature, and would only be a core ability depending on scenario.

[Seredain]

I agree completely, though with the proviso that I'd allow a core scout choice for Wood Elves. I mean, shooting and hiding is kinda their bag, baby.

Hmm... actually, Gond, perhaps I'd consider taking away core scouting even from Wood Elves, but allow them to have a unique upgrade ability where for a couple of points per archer they could make them skirmish. That seems elfy to me.

In all other respects I agree with you, though. Core Warhammer should be about rank and file with FEW notable exceptions (Bretts, Ogres). No way Empire should have any core scout or even skirmish options. That men do and elves don't? That gets on my boobs.

Back on topic. Other than the Stegadon thing, which I think the whole world agrees is shockingly designed, and the fact that the Engine is not magic but works in the magic phase and so violates the basic structure of the game, the new book is awesome. Great core. Saurus rock ass, skinks + Krox are scary, salamanders fixed, saurus cav made viable, terradons a complete pain in the arse still...

The new lizards are a scary army to play but not broken. My mate uses a tank of 28 Saurus Warrior spears (4 x 7) at 1.5k which, until I get the flank charge ( ) is always looking like it's going to just run me over. Good and tense games so far.

On the Engine of the Gods question (and the Dwarfs' anvil for that matter), my mate and I agree that something is magical if it can hit ethereal things. Ie that engine is either mundane lightning which can't hurt ghosts, or it's magical 'spell' lighting which can hit ghosts but which will also be successfully nullified by the Banner of the World Dragon. We chose the latter path. I'm not sure how the FAQ stands at this stage but GW need to settle the point ASAP. More importantly, they need to stipulate that things like the Anvil and Engine are just mega bound spells in order to bring them back into the fold of the usefully simple WFB rules. Either a 'bolt' of something is magic or mundane- nothing should be the best of both. I mean, if these magic engines were enchanted catapults or something, then they'd be like like magic bows and I'd get it. But magic lightning? No no.

In general, though, thumbs up for 7th Lizards.


Cheers,


S.

[geoguswrek]

Wood elves don't play warhammer anyway, so talking about them in terms of other armies isn't really a good idea.

[GobbladasSquig]

My all elven eternal guard list begs to differ.

[Lord Anathir]

one thing I do like about the lizard book is the engine of the gods hurts msu knights so bad, especially the dark elf monster mash list and chaos knight list.

[Gondarion]

one thing I do like about the lizard book is the engine of the gods hurts msu knights so bad, especially the dark elf monster mash list and chaos knight list.

It does, but therein lies one of the biggest problems with current GW design, which is to respond to an army's problems by trying to fix them in the next army book. Creating a problem than fixing/bolstering something completely different onlly muddies the picture.

That being said, the engine of the gods is damn cool, and were it not for all the abilities to get extra stegadon, it would stand out even amognst recent releases. Its stupendously powerful, but it also has clear vulnerabilities.

[draxynnic]

I agree completely, though with the proviso that I'd allow a core scout choice for Wood Elves. I mean, shooting and hiding is kinda their bag, baby.

There's also the fact that Wood Elves are a lot more expensive to upgrade to Scouts than Skinks - going from 12 points to 17 instead of going from 6 to 7 - and, furthermore, unlike Skinks, the Wood Elf Scouts have an additional downside over cost to taking the option, as they lose the Glade Guard Longbows rule. In other words, the reason why Asrai scouts didn't get abused like Skink scouts is because the former was actually appropriately costed (if not overcosted).

I'd have to disagree with the opinion that Waywatchers should definitely be better scouts than Chameleon Skinks, however. Yes, the Waywatchers have superb training and equipment - however, the Chameleons have instinct, colour-changing ability, and a nervous system and muscalature designed for stealth. It stands to reason that the Chameleons may compete on at least the stealth stakes, although the Waywatchers remain better at marksmanship and fieldcraft.

As for the current Lizardmen crunch - I only got a reliable income again a fortnight ago, so the budget hasn't stretched to acquiring the new LM book yet.

[babalubeaga]

Gondarion:

Just curious as to what you thought were the clear vulnerabilities of the EotG were? To me they seem both extremely powerful on paper and on the playing field, and actually lacking that Achilles heel that most units/monsters tend to have.

[Gondarion]

Gondarion:

Just curious as to what you thought were the clear vulnerabilities of the EotG were? To me they seem both extremely powerful on paper and on the playing field, and actually lacking that Achilles heel that most units/monsters tend to have.

1. Kill the little guy who operates the thing, either snipe him with something or kill him in combat. Alternatively, if you have a dragon lord or some other mobile combat monster, just charge in and kill the stegadon too. Granted, I think the engine is still too good for the cost, but its not cheesy because it can be dealt with.

[babalubeaga]

while I agree with your ideas on that, the problem I have run into with this are those unstoppable powers the EotG has.

When no one is close, its 5+ ward save vs. shooting (not end all be all but when coupled with AS and randomization, makes it that much harder to get a wound in or beast or rider).

If you are within even 12" your gonna get that bomb-blast type attack that comes in at S4 and doesn't allow AS. Yes it has to be randomized within a unit (D6 hits per unit) but a bad roll (for you) and your HE lord on the dragon can get picked off or at least lose a few wounds...and the worst thing is there is nothing you can do about it.

With elves it makes it dangerous to even approach and EotG unless you completely wipe it out before the LM magic phase. A good LM strategy is to run 2 EotGs, side by side or staggered therefore doubling up on the attack radius of the bomb-blast. Since it can go through on units in combat also, while the first one ties you up the second one goes off the following magic phase.

Playing against 1 of them sucks but is manageable, but any more than that and their special rules start to take over the game, and really shift the balance of power to the LM player.