The new lizzardmen army book - a huge disappointment for me

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Marinero
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The new lizzardmen army book - a huge disappointment for me

#1 Post by Marinero »

Greetings,

I am really sad with the recently released LM army book. So much, that I sold my huge, fully painted lizzardmen army...

(sigh).. I think that the LM army book is a real poor piece of work. Luckily, not a 'poor = terribly unbalance and broken' as the daemons of chaos army book, but 'poor, as utterly strupid, one dimensional and and simply terrible'.

Things that got improved:

* saurus infantry - cheaper, better AC, better with spears
* saurus cavalry - better AS
* Stegadons - huge boost. 2 types of stegs, AoG, hero mounts, improved stats. Only abuseable feature of the book, done 100% on purpose by GW - 'lets give the buggers a new cheesy bit, at $50 a pop, and let say, of 50000 potential LM players, 20000 will fall for it and will buy 3+ models. 20000*$50*3=$3,000,000, Huzzaaah!!!' (*#%@^^#%!holes)
* Carnosaurus is now better, by not being a large target, and dealing D3 wounds to all targerts. Still, it gets eaten by the bloodthirster for breakfast and is usually not enough for him..

Things that got nerfed, screwed up, utterly damaged:

* Slann. Period - total nerf. They arguably made it possible to field a cheaper slann, but there is nothing that can match price/performance of a previous 4th genreation slan, let alone the great (now extinct, it seems that all 5 of them died) 2nd generation slan. So much for the greatest wizzards, children of the old ones, blah-blah

* Sacred spawnings - total nerf. Result => characters are much weaker than they used to be. True, they gave the veteran 5 T, but so what..

* Skinks.. Total nerf, mainly because we cannot field them as scouts.

* Kroxigors - even a bigger nerf - no S7, and most important, loss of skink screens. It has been poorly substituted with a mixed, but totally useless unit of skinks and korx. :roll:

* Chameleons got nerfed, and they are now the only scouts available

* Terradons got nerfed - they lost the hit-and-run rule for a stupid quasi fast cavalry rule. Also, the attacks of the skink are separate from these of the terradon, meaning that the model has 1 S3 and 2 S4 attacks.. Brilliant. Ah, yes, there is the fly through woods thing, which is SOOO good :roll:

* Salamanders got more expensive, and less killy.. Good job.

* The razordons are more expensive, and also less killy. The model looks cool though

So, not only most of the units got nerfed, but the magic items are totally screwed up.

GW has toned down all the previously good items/combo, and has replaced them by ... That is right - nicht, niente, nada, nothing.

- No more jaguar saurus (unless you are regualrly playing idiots)
- No more huanchi blessed totem, replaced by a suspiciously orcish looking, and totally useless banner
- Aura of Quetzl badly nerfed, thus leaving the lizzies without ward save. Brilliant, wonderfully thought of job..

( I would imagine that being not very smart is a prerequisite to get a job at GW. (I would use a much more abusive wording, but I am afraid that my post would get deleted). )

- Finally - there is not a single really useful arcane item :!: :!: :!:

So well done, GW. I wish you stegadon sales soar Everest high..

In the mean time, with a heavy heart I sold:

* Slann
* Oldblood on Carnosaur
* 2 veterans on foot
* 2 veterans on cold one
* 2 skink priests

* 48 Sauri
* 48 skinks
* 16 Saurus cavalry
* 5 Terradons
* 4 Kroxigors
* 1 Stegadon
* 3 Salamander hunting packs

Good bye and good ridance
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#2 Post by Wildling04 »

Most of the things that I see listed in the nerf section were pretty much expected (even by lizard players I know) and imo pretty much deserved the nerf. I haven't compared the magic items to last edition, so not sure there, though it sounds bad.

Overall, they still look like a very competitive army.

Just my two cents, but I suppose I can understand the frustration in that it is difficult to go backwards with some units.
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Darvon
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#3 Post by Darvon »

If this was WoW I'd ask for your items... as it is, I'm stuck for an appropriate response.
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#4 Post by RE.Lee »

Well my friend plays Lizzies and he's very happy with the list, as seem to be most of the people down at the Pyramid Vault. Especially the improvements on the Saurus are nice.
cheers, Lee

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Arhain
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#5 Post by Arhain »

Every Lizardmen player I have talked to loves the new rules. They, like everyone, complained about the changes initially. Then once the army hit the board, they found them to be absolutely amazing. Overall the book is balanced and is competitive against the newer book, and is fun to play with. I fail to see how it is a one dimensional army now. Yes, they lose the spawnings, which I didn't like, but that doesn't mean they are one dimensional.

I say great job GW for making a great book, and some beautiful new models to play with. The Stegadon needed to be redone, and it is one of the most amazing kits they've ever done. They could have made the crappiest rules for the monster, and it still would sell like mad.
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Re: The new lizzardmen army book - a huge disappointment for

#6 Post by geoguswrek »

Marinero wrote:Greetings,

I am really sad with the recently released LM army book. So much, that I sold my huge, fully painted lizzardmen army...

(sigh).. I think that the LM army book is a real poor piece of work. Luckily, not a 'poor = terribly unbalance and broken' as the daemons of chaos army book, but 'poor, as utterly strupid, one dimensional and and simply terrible'.

Things that got improved:

* saurus infantry - cheaper, better AC, better with spears
* saurus cavalry - better AS
* Stegadons - huge boost. 2 types of stegs, AoG, hero mounts, improved stats. Only abuseable feature of the book, done 100% on purpose by GW - 'lets give the buggers a new cheesy bit, at $50 a pop, and let say, of 50000 potential LM players, 20000 will fall for it and will buy 3+ models. 20000*$50*3=$3,000,000, Huzzaaah!!!' (*#%@^^#%!holes)
* Carnosaurus is now better, by not being a large target, and dealing D3 wounds to all targerts. Still, it gets eaten by the bloodthirster for breakfast and is usually not enough for him..

Things that got nerfed, screwed up, utterly damaged:

* Slann. Period - total nerf. They arguably made it possible to field a cheaper slann, but there is nothing that can match price/performance of a previous 4th genreation slan, let alone the great (now extinct, it seems that all 5 of them died) 2nd generation slan. So much for the greatest wizzards, children of the old ones, blah-blah

You CAN still make a good, solid slann, in fact arguably better with the all spells + +1 dice gifts for cheap, meaning you get an army to back it up. The rod of storms is still good

* Sacred spawnings - total nerf. Result => characters are much weaker than they used to be. True, they gave the veteran 5 T, but so what..

The characters aren't AS hard, but they are still good, and in line with other combat characters.

* Skinks.. Total nerf, mainly because we cannot field them as scouts.

the loss of scout hurts the list but makes it less annoying to play against

* Kroxigors - even a bigger nerf - no S7, and most important, loss of skink screens. It has been poorly substituted with a mixed, but totally useless unit of skinks and korx. :roll:

so instead of being the best multi wound unit in the game they are just about average?


* Chameleons got nerfed, and they are now the only scouts available

* Terradons got nerfed - they lost the hit-and-run rule for a stupid quasi fast cavalry rule. Also, the attacks of the skink are separate from these of the terradon, meaning that the model has 1 S3 and 2 S4 attacks.. Brilliant. Ah, yes, there is the fly through woods thing, which is SOOO good :roll:

Terradons are AMAZING. the rock drop is one of the best mage hunting abilities in the game. And they still kill wizards in units, so they do their job: kill wizards so the slann has run of the board.


* Salamanders got more expensive, and less killy.. Good job.

salamanders are often more killy actually. they are less killy against single characters and small units, but multi flame templates are amazing against infantry, even dwarves.

* The razordons are more expensive, and also less killy. The model looks cool though

Razordons are pretty panse, i agree

So, not only most of the units got nerfed, but the magic items are totally screwed up.

GW has toned down all the previously good items/combo, and has replaced them by ... That is right - nicht, niente, nada, nothing.

- No more jaguar saurus (unless you are regualrly playing idiots)
The jaguar saurus is now BETTER! if you have a slann they have to let this spell go through.
- No more huanchi blessed totem, replaced by a suspiciously orcish looking, and totally useless banner
Be honest, huanchi's totem was broken
- Aura of Quetzl badly nerfed, thus leaving the lizzies without ward save. Brilliant, wonderfully thought of job..
true.
( I would imagine that being not very smart is a prerequisite to get a job at GW. (I would use a much more abusive wording, but I am afraid that my post would get deleted). )

- Finally - there is not a single really useful arcane item :!: :!: :!:

So well done, GW. I wish you stegadon sales soar Everest high..

In the mean time, with a heavy heart I sold:

* Slann
* Oldblood on Carnosaur
* 2 veterans on foot
* 2 veterans on cold one
* 2 skink priests

* 48 Sauri
* 48 skinks
* 16 Saurus cavalry
* 5 Terradons
* 4 Kroxigors
* 1 Stegadon
* 3 Salamander hunting packs

Good bye and good ridance
Units of 12 sauri are one of the best MSU units in the game: high basic leadership, high T, high AS, s and lots of s4 attacks: whats not to love?
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#7 Post by Arhain »

Sorry, have to add more!

The new stegadon kit is $40, and gives you two skink character models as well as the stegadon, not to mention the extra bits you get. It's a great deal.

Saurus characters are still rock solid, being able to get a 0+ wave with mundane equipment only, with S5 and T5. C'mon, nerf to saurus? Please, they're fine.

Also, yeah, skinks can't scout. So what. Scouting skinks was not what made skinks so good in the previous edition. And let's not forget they now have Ld. 6, which is a HUGE bonus. I am consistently frustrated when playing against lizzies because I can't make any of the damn skinks panic!


Might add more if the mood suits me...
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#8 Post by Enginseer »

i love my new lizards.

sure some players are going to take the ol' 500 stegadon list. but there is still options in there for fun, competitive games.

The new slann is awesome. actually worth it this edition.

i would have gladly taken your old models off your hands.
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#9 Post by Musashi »

While I won't judge how balanced the new Lizzie book is, I will say that it does now seriously contend for a top position.

While selling an army is a matter of personal choice, the new book shouldn't have had the deciding factor.
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#10 Post by Paradus »

I look at the new Lizards and I am dissapointed not for the competitive level but for the blandness of the list.

Some changes I can agree with i.e Jag charm nerfed and Sallie losing auto hits but changes like Charmeleon skinks losing their super scout rule, Krox's losing skirmish screen or the slann able to miscast (I mean can you honestly see a 4th or lower gen slann miscasting and damaging themselves and their comrades) really annoys me.

Plus the Magic items just look so rushed. So many things are overpriced or idiotic (Horned one able to be desroyed :? ) and moving plaques into the magic items takes away their uniqueness.

Plus Loss of spawnlings which though they weren't great before they should have been improved instead of going the easy option and ditched.

I just feel that Lizzies, like WOC was rushed and a missed oportunity.

cheers.
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#11 Post by chaosmaddie »

the new book seems very powerful, not as over the top as Demons or VC, but not as weak as Warriors of Chaos new book was either.

I dabble with lizzies as my second army and the changes are very nice. You can't have quite the points lock that slaan's used to be, and some of the more cheesy magic item combos got changed around a bit as well. The special characters are good, but expensive (as they should be, because to be honest, some of the high elf special characters are FAR under-priced for what they do).

The magic items are very weak for the book, but the hero's are rock solid and the new flexibility with the Slaan and the Engine of the Gods.....insanely powerful.

The amount of dispel dice a Lizardman army can generate is pretty staggering.

As far as skinks not being scouts.....the previous army had TWO different scouting units, while most armies don't have any. The kroxigors going to Str 6 instead of Str 7 is probably accurate. GW seems to really be limiting the number of strength 7 hitters out there, and it puts kroxies on par with Minotaurs, Ogres and some of the more stout hitters.

I am glad they changed the "skink screens" special rule, it was stupidly over-powered and always made for a cheesy "I can charge you but you can't charge me"

The new Carni is an absolute beast, and the changes to it are good.

Especially when considering The Burning Alignment from the Engine of the Gods and the number of low toughness troops (All Elves, Humans, Skaven, Goblins,) out there and the fact that against 2 of the "power armies" out there (Demons and VC) it does VERY WELL, they basically gave lizzies something to combat the powergamers.

I can't see how anyone could be upset with the new book....
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#12 Post by Jhaantikaal »

The engine of the gods is stupidly good - the ward save is more than annoying, and the burning alignment spell verges on the broken - especially as its cast for free and is unstoppable.
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#13 Post by Ryuuzaki »

And the Engine gives you a 3lvl skink in less than 2000 pts games... Mabe slann lost gens but these powers aren't much worse, and now he's VERY much cheaper, making it even more playable. Lizzies still punch hard with magic esp. with EotG, Slann and 2 lvl 2 skinks (and the lvl 3 on the steg). All skinks Heaven, slann Fire and the Engine uses the -1 casting value power.... Zzzap!
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#14 Post by Marinero »

Losing the +1 to cast and dispel and the immunity to miscast is a huge blow to the lizzadmen magic phase - I had 2 games today with my HE vs 2 different VC players, and I can vouch for that...

I agree with @Paradus - the book is bland, boring and one sided.. It has the potential to smell cheese big time of course, but if I want cheese, I would be playing daemons, right ...

The new book is simply totally unfit for my play style, thus I do not like it, and therefore, with regret, I moved out of the lizzardmen player group...
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#15 Post by Arhain »

May I ask how the book is one sided? Yes, it lost some of the variety it had with the spawnings, but that's it. It's cheaper and i'd say a little more fun to do a magic army, and if you don't want magic, then a hth list is more brutal than in 6th. An all skink army is also no where near as bland as it used to be.

Yeah, I miss the spawnings, but hell, the new list is great. Just play with it a little. I'm finding people are complaining with about the new lizzies, then play a few games and realize the list is great.
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#16 Post by babalubeaga »

yeah I can't really see anyone who plays Lizzardmen complaining about the new book.
Scar vets are probably the best combat hero out there T5!!
The oldblood setup with 9 attacks @ S5 on Carni, who is not a large target and is S7 is pretty much devastating against anything other than HE Lord on Stardragon.
EotG could be the single cheesiest thing in the game thus far, it has just about as many special rules as a Steam Tank, only you can't mount your mages on a steam tank and give them a free magic level.
Cold Blooded is still there, predatory fighters is gone, Stegs to special, Slann are cheaper (if you want them to be at least more customizable) and TG are much improved, although not really needed as much with all the other changes.
For those of you who "hate" the new book, can I ask what exactly you were wanting that you thought Lizardmen fairly deserved? They seem to be good at everything and weak at nothing...good stats and pretty reasonably pt. costs. Saurus Warrior vs. HE Spearman, which one would you take?
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Lizardman Book

#17 Post by Talis_Alexander »

I love it and hate it.
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#18 Post by geoguswrek »

A few more points:
On losing super scout: they had to do this because of the way scouting is defined in the book "out of los and in or behind interposing terrain" meaning they can be in a piece of rough ground in the middle of the enemy army (as long as they are out of los). since the "blocks assumed to see 360 was dropped).
Also they got rid of immunity to dispel since they decided that should be limited to special characters (as well it should)
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#19 Post by dabber »

babalubeaga wrote:yeah I can't really see anyone who plays Lizzardmen complaining about the new book.
Easy. It's boring. There is nothing interesting in the Lizardmen army book now except Stegadon-spam. There is nothing else in the Lizardmen book that isn't easily mirrored in another book.
A local Lizardmen player is selling his army because he finds it boring now. I have no desire to play mine, despite owning tons of Lizardmen, including 90 painted Saurus warriors, who supposedly are better now. The improved Saurus still aren't of much use.

* The Slann is no longer unique. He is a normal wizard that generates a lot of dice. Easy comparison to a VC Lord or a High Elf Archmage (with Banner of Sorcery).
* Kroxigors are just overpriced ogres.
* Saurus Cavalry, without the old Huanchi banner, are just heavy cavalry with stupidity.
* Scar-vets have a great stat line ... and nothing else. There wasn't much to do with a scar-vet in the old book, but there is even less use for him now.
* The Oldblood lost his best defensive item, and that one wasn't that awesome anyway. He now has fewer configuration options and thus less interesting builds. His only new feature (blade of realities) is just trying to decide the game on a very few dice rolls, not tactics.
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#20 Post by dabber »

geoguswrek wrote:A few more points:
On losing super scout: they had to do this because of the way scouting is defined in the book "out of los and in or behind interposing terrain" meaning they can be in a piece of rough ground in the middle of the enemy army (as long as they are out of los). since the "blocks assumed to see 360 was dropped).
Or they could use their brains and errata the rulebook. They errata'd the 6th edition version because the wording was confusing and unclear. The late 6th edition version was clear and immune to arguments. Then, demonstrating their incompetence, they put the original 6th edition wording back in 7th edition. You'd think the first step in writing a new edition would be checking the erratas you had to issue for the previous edition and making sure they were included. But GW isn't competent enough for that.
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#21 Post by Ramesesis »

I know some people seems to have loved the skink horde and 2nd gen slann, but those where regarded evil cheese by others. So good riddance. Slann is still easily very powerful when compared with other mages. Lizardmens can also make a strong magic defence, and that sure does come in handy. +1 to dispell or cast? Never bothered with such items in other armies, cause I personally hate magic spamming and people using them, since that ruins the rest of the game.

Had I not been up to my ears with other stuff, I might have started lizardmens now.
And no, the only thing I really dislike about them is the Steggiespam, but I could easily see myself taking one Steg ancient with Engines of the Gods, crew by Skink priest Burrsa and having Skink priest Tehe following along, as my saurus warriors finally gets the proper pride of place.

Did you play with sauruses last time, or was it all your beloved skink spamfest? Chameleons where in many ways more worth their points than Waywatchers, and hold it there, Waywatchers should be top of the pop when it comes to such school of war. Good riddance!

All in all, what is wrong with Sauruses finally getting their time to shine? To enable that and to get rid of the skink spamfiest, you needed to do something. And now, together with their kroxiez buddies, they can now fight as proper warriors alongside the sauruses.

Lizardmen armies SHOULD be about serries ranks of saurus infantry, the rest should be support only. Good work GW!

And Amen to my words!
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#22 Post by Morskittar »

The only thing that really annoyed me about the new list was that I can no longer take my cavalry-heavy Kroq-gar list :(

It's a bit sad that the blessed spawnings are gone, but seriously, who used them? Characters were nice with Sotek and 1 or 2 others depending on what sort of list you were running, but they had limited use for units. Although I'll admit, I love the blessed army variants you could take, with the priests getting the matching magic. I feel really bad for people who had one of those themed armies, and now it's useless.

I agree with the annoyance that you have to buy skirmish for skinks. Why the hell would they rank up anyway? They're not supposed to be the fighters! Still, and least you can put a Kroxigor in there with them again...

Why on earth did you sell your army though? You might as well have kept it for when the next edition rolls around...
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#23 Post by Tylarion »

You could just continue using the 6th edition book, most people I know would not mind me playing with 6th edition HE.
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#24 Post by Marinero »

dabber wrote:
babalubeaga wrote:yeah I can't really see anyone who plays Lizzardmen complaining about the new book.
Easy. It's boring. There is nothing interesting in the Lizardmen army book now except Stegadon-spam. There is nothing else in the Lizardmen book that isn't easily mirrored in another book.
A local Lizardmen player is selling his army because he finds it boring now. I have no desire to play mine, despite owning tons of Lizardmen, including 90 painted Saurus warriors, who supposedly are better now. The improved Saurus still aren't of much use.

* The Slann is no longer unique. He is a normal wizard that generates a lot of dice. Easy comparison to a VC Lord or a High Elf Archmage (with Banner of Sorcery).
* Kroxigors are just overpriced ogres.
* Saurus Cavalry, without the old Huanchi banner, are just heavy cavalry with stupidity.
* Scar-vets have a great stat line ... and nothing else. There wasn't much to do with a scar-vet in the old book, but there is even less use for him now.
* The Oldblood lost his best defensive item, and that one wasn't that awesome anyway. He now has fewer configuration options and thus less interesting builds. His only new feature (blade of realities) is just trying to decide the game on a very few dice rolls, not tactics.
Hey dabber, you have put most of my grievances in a concise and clear manner.

I used saurus cavalry and 2 blocks of saurus warriors before, when they were worse than they are now.. I look at the new improved sauri warriors and cavalry, and I am not impressed.. The army is plain boring.. They took out everything that was unique and nice.

And to all who said that 'lizzies deserved the nerf, 'cause they were cheese' I would recommend to see the lizzardmen record in GT or RTTs in the past 2 years.. Suddenly, the old lizzies will not look as cheese..
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#25 Post by babalubeaga »

You claim the old saurus were fun but the new ones are "boring." I guess I just don't see how, GW put them on par with Chaos Warriors as some of the best core rank and file in the game, as they should be according to fluff and what we all expect of them.
With all the new special characters, new units and models (which are all very nice to look at) as well as kroxy add ons that don't cost special slots, and stegadons move to special, LM seem more exciting than previous editions.
While monster mash isn't necessarily fun to play against all the time and can sometimes prove to be hard if not impossible to beat sometimes, it does give you something different to play against than any other army. I would consider the "new LM" as different, not boring, and other than the massive skirmishing skink horde, I don't see how any list you used to play can't still be fielded.
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#26 Post by Musashi »

LMAB7 isn't radically different from LMAB6, a the most the changes are about the same as from HEAB6 to HEAB7, there were some I disliked and some I felt that could have been kept.

Our local Lizzie player seems to be rather happy with the changes, as it allows him to field his Slann and a combat heavy force. His Skinks were only viable previously because we permitted him to have additional swamps.

Still, I don't play this list, so it does come down to your personal preferences.
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#27 Post by RE.Lee »

I like the move away from annoying skink skirmisher armies - its the saurus who do the fighting in lizardmen society and its nice to see them making a big come back. Being M4 elite infantry they will never be the best of choices but right now they can finally claim to be the backbone of the army. Some goes for temple guard.

As for the Slann. At the pyramid vault they would respond to topic such as "Where to put the Slann?" by "If you took a Slann, you've already made a mistake". I feel its different now - the skills make slann much more unique than the generations (in practice there was only the choice between 2 and 4 anyway) - rumination is very powerful and cogitation is like 6th edition drain magic in play ALL THE TIME.
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#28 Post by dabber »

RE.Lee wrote:its the saurus who do the fighting in lizardmen society and its nice to see them making a big come back.
I see no evidence of Saurus "making a comeback" or reason for them to do so. Small units with spears is about all I see. They are only marginally better than previously, and don't make a good "backbone of the army".

The annoying skink horde works just as well in the new book. Perhaps better because of the leadership boost.
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#29 Post by RE.Lee »

They're regarded as useful, Saurus MSU is a tactic people are seriously considering. Sure its nothing incredible, but when I think about where they were a few months ago, it does look like a comeback.
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#30 Post by Arhain »

Saurus are cheaper, have an incredibly build in armor save, and the spears are absurdly better. Every lizzie list i've played against since the new book has had saurus present. I am sure in tournament lists you will be seeing saurus. How have saurus NOT made a come back?
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