HE vs. Stegadons

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superhighelves
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#121 Post by superhighelves »

Wildling04 wrote:
Most of the complaints from people in recent weeks regarding the list are in the vein of "I want to make a list like THIS, but THIS isn't competitive, so HE are crappy army list." Or when pointed to lists that do win, "Well, that's not how I think of high elves."
You take the result of tournament too serious even though it doesn't prove anything. If a HE player won a tournament while the rest of the HE population is struggling, does it mean that the rest of us don't know how to play HE? Not necessary.

Furthermore, tournament is about the match up. What does it say about HE army when you don't play against a hardcore player with a powerful list in the tournament? The fact that some HE players try to 'use' this list to play and the result is unknown tells you something about the list.

The purpose for our complaint is to make HE better because it'll never be better if we accept the current problem and move on.
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Prince_Asuryan
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#122 Post by Prince_Asuryan »

superhighelves wrote:
Wildling04 wrote:
Most of the complaints from people in recent weeks regarding the list are in the vein of "I want to make a list like THIS, but THIS isn't competitive, so HE are crappy army list." Or when pointed to lists that do win, "Well, that's not how I think of high elves."


The purpose for our complaint is to make HE better because it'll never be better if we accept the current problem and move on.
IMO, I think that HE are a fine army. Granted, there are more competitive armies out there, but I don't think HE are in any position to demand much of an upgrade...

Anyway, we need to stay on topic..
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#123 Post by PapaElf »

superhighelves wrote:
Wildling04 wrote:
Most of the complaints from people in recent weeks regarding the list are in the vein of "I want to make a list like THIS, but THIS isn't competitive, so HE are crappy army list." Or when pointed to lists that do win, "Well, that's not how I think of high elves."
You take the result of tournament too serious even though it doesn't prove anything. If a HE player won a tournament while the rest of the HE population is struggling, does it mean that the rest of us don't know how to play HE? Not necessary.

Furthermore, tournament is about the match up. What does it say about HE army when you don't play against a hardcore player with a powerful list in the tournament? The fact that some HE players try to 'use' this list to play and the result is unknown tells you something about the list.

The purpose for our complaint is to make HE better because it'll never be better if we accept the current problem and move on.
I have to throw in with Wildling04's position in this arguement.

SuperhighElves, why does Mr. Spiers success not prove anything? There were 92 players in the Las Vegas tournament all of which paid an entry fee to play. Some traveled as far as England to Las Vegas (Mr. Spiers) in order to play. This is a considerable finanical outlay to play five games of Warhammer and these costs tend to winnow the field to quality Warhammer players. The second best High Elf finish in the tournament was 27th. I'm not sure that this says anything about the typical High Elf general's ability to play, but it does say something about those good players lack of understanding of the metagame present at the tournament.

As for the match-ups, one cannot win a tournament in the United States without playing the best competition the tournament has to offer. This is because they all use the "Swiss" pairing system made popular by Collective Card Games tournaments. For example the first round is by random draw. After the first round of 92 players there are 46 winners and 46 losers (minus the draws). In the second round the winners play other winners and the losers play other losers resulting in 23 two game winners and 23 two game losers with the rest of the field at one win, one loss. Winners are again matched for the third round, and so fourth. In the last two rounds at Las Vegas, Mr. Spiers played the second and third place finishers at the tournament.

Finally the fact that other players copy the list, but still fail to win, says nothing about the list, but states volumes about those players understanding of the list, ability to play the list, and that there are factors other than the list itself behind Mr. Spiers success.

And as for your final statement going to correcting a current problem, just exactly what is the problem? Afterall, if one actually studies Mr. Spiers battle reports one would find he plays High Elf "Hammer and Anvil" just as the rest claim to do. He just does it with a hammer heavy enough to win in the metagame where he is playing. There is no slack in his lists, with each unit and item being selected for a specific purpose.
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babalubeaga
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#124 Post by babalubeaga »

RE.Lee I think you have probably come up with what I also believe to be the best way to take down multiple Stegs: Lore of Beasts to halt their movement, Lore of Metal and RBTs to take a few wounds off and either DPs or WLs or Lion Chariots to finish them off. Unfortunately it appears HE will have to devote 2-4xs the points of the stegadon to it in order to bring one down with extreme luck rolls.

Ceyl-isha, all I'm going to say is that I really don't care for the tone of your message. Your clarifications to your earlier post further contradict what you have already said. You don't sound like anyone I would like to play WHFB with or even around. Your condescending nature gets old rather quick.

For your own record chaosmaddie is my brother, and if you would have read this entire thread from the beginning you might have been able to piece that together when we set up this discussion. It seems you might be the only one here making assumptions.

As we try to keep this back on topic, maybe you should go shine your light on another thread where people might appreciate you talking down at them and throwing around innuendos about skill level and rulebook comprehension.
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#125 Post by Musashi »

Since I tend to get sucked into rather large games, my experience tends to differ somewhat.

It is not uncommon to throw a disproportionate amount of points to take down a single target. I do it all the time, and using the blitzkrieg strategy is a perfect illustration of this.

The trick involved for HE is momentum, we cannot allow ourselves to be stuck on one target while we take it down - it has to be finished in one round and we move on to the others.

This method allows us to concentrate an inordinate amount of points at one point at one time and devastate one unit. If opportunity allows, overrun into another combat. That is the optimal use of this technique.
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#126 Post by RE.Lee »

Momentum is easilly lost however when you face a ItP, Stubborn, Cold blooded Dreadnaught. Perhaps the Ant Spiers typ of army could reliably get rid of one of these per turn, but I doubt anything less.
cheers, Lee

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#127 Post by ceyl-isha »

Not you again Prince_Asuryan Im just defending my self they didn't have to get into my comment if they wanted to be constructive they could have asked questions.But good use of the lie and wait anti-troll stratagy to bad its transpearent I have PMed you not to post to me or respond to my posts so take a hint.

You can take your animosity and go you have been nothing more than a troll so off with you.now I feel like your following me just to be small.But keep up your following of my posts I think it may be a new feature of my post chains to have the obligatory Prince_Asuryan troll post!!!.

And RE.Lee your right 500 pts is not a good trade for the value but it dose open a train of thought where that many Stegs gives them fue support units and makes the table more open I think you could take a smaller force ad use the lack of experience with a all steg army against them and take hammer units to pick off the stragglers In the end the biggest weakness to the steg is its Weapon skill so I think hitting it with some resilience after some hard artillery is the way to go we don't have a lot of hard hitters but a fue well placed and timed assaults is the key I think.

And babalubeaga,it makes scence that chaosmaddie and you are brothersI would defend my family in the wrong too,but your odvious assumptions to what I have said points out how green you are to whfb maybe you and your brother should play more and post less.

And if my "tone" has been anything less than good Elvin humour you should be less defensive I didn't meen to get under your skin its just when you make assumptions that see very inexperienced I can only point that out.

but 6 stegs dosent scare me its 2-3 with good support that is fearsome.

But again cheers you two boys have a good day.
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Prince_Asuryan
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#128 Post by Prince_Asuryan »

ceyl-isha wrote:Not you again Prince_Asuryan Im just defending my self they didn't have to get into my comment if they wanted to be constructive they could have asked questions.But good use of the lie and wait anti-troll stratagy to bad its transpearent I have PMed you not to post to me or respond to my posts so take a hint.
I think you'll find that I was replying on topic. Take it up with the Lores. And I think I'm entitled to defend people I think you are insulting. Call ea good Samaritan.
You can take your animosity and go you have been nothing more than a troll so off with you.now I feel like your following me just to be small.But keep up your following of my posts I think it may be a new feature of my post chains to have the obligatory Prince_Asuryan troll post!!!.


I hardly think I follow you. I have around 2000 posts on this site. Maybe 10 are in relation to you? Also, maybe there's a reason.
And RE.Lee your right 500 pts is not a good trade for the value but it dose open a train of thought where that many Stegs gives them fue support units and makes the table more open I think you could take a smaller force ad use the lack of experience with a all steg army against them and take hammer units to pick off the stragglers In the end the biggest weakness to the steg is its Weapon skill so I think hitting it with some resilience after some hard artillery is the way to go we don't have a lot of hard hitters but a fue well placed and timed assaults is the key I think.
when Skinks cost 60 points for a unit of 10, they can easily fit in 3-4 effective support units. In addition, Stegs can double as support or main battle line units.

Weapon skill is not a problem for Stegs as they use impact hits - which auto-hit.
And babalubeaga,it makes scence that chaosmaddie and you are brothersI would defend my family in the wrong too,but your odvious assumptions to what I have said points out how green you are to whfb maybe you and your brother should play more and post less.

And if my "tone" has been anything less than good Elvin humour you should be less defensive I didn't meen to get under your skin its just when you make assumptions that see very inexperienced I can only point that out.
Calling people 'green' and acting like you know so much more than them is not 'elvin humour'. It's downright offensive.
But again cheers you two boys have a good day.
Don't worry. I will.
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#129 Post by garythewargamer »

I have only played one LM with the heavy monsters. He had two regular and one ancient. I was playing with Teclis, a DM and another mage, with 3 RBTs. I managed to nearly get a solid victory but it was a struggle. And all the magic rolls went in my favor. I as able to kill one with RBTs single shots. The ancient one got the attention of the dragon mage, killing off the top. The other one had his priest shot off. Teclis died and my army was in shambles but there you go.
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#130 Post by Giladis »

Everyone behave, I am in a nasty mood and heads could roll.


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ceyl-isha
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#131 Post by ceyl-isha »

Well A.p. you are really starting to get a laugh from me and we sure got a poke from glad so in the future how about you just flex your Epeen through PMs and not waist good thread topics.

And good job for answer for R.l. didn't know you where the same person.

And glad thank you for stepping in,some maturity is always welcome even if I fail to have it some times.
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Wildling04
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#132 Post by Wildling04 »

@SHE, no I think that HE players, especially those that stick with it are good players. I just think that our "lore list" (lots of spears) is not a tournament winning army. However, I'd argue that most tournament winning lists aren't "lore lists" and that we do have at least one incarnation of a list that we know can succeed.

Back on topic:

Played in a tourney today. faced an ancient steg (with a hero on it) and had 2 bolt throwers in my army. Fired 4 shots, hit three times and hit steg twice (on one hit I killed a skink). I did 3 wounds to it. I could have fired at it more and probably should have. Took the other 3 wounds down after it charged a star dragon that was already in combat.

I would guess it would take about 3-4 rounds of shooting in general to do it had I played it right and focused shooting on it every round or had it not charged. So, while my dragon did get invested in destroying it, I feel that 2 bolt throwers (200 points) could have been more than effective enough in taking it down, less than than the cost of the ancient steggy.

I am starting to think, though, that 3 bolt throwers might be appropriate for lists with monsters.
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#133 Post by babalubeaga »

I would guess that focus firing w/ 2 RBTs and some archers would do the trick after 3+ rounds, the only problem comes when they bring more than 3-4 of these. We run out of RBTs (even with 4) at the 2:1 ratio and also having Terradons and Skinks ambushing our RBT crews.

With 4 total stegadons, a LM player could still have plenty of room for at least 2 big blocks of saurus, who are vastly superior to our spears. The spread shot would be vital to taking a few ranks off that unit to soften it up before combat.

Which brings up another dilemma:

Do you shoot saurus blocks with the spread shot or stegadons with the big bolt?

Even with max RBTs and taking into account LoS restrictions, it would appear that on average you could take down a stegadon about every other turn with 3 RBTs.

But would a saurus spear block be a better target assuming your opponent had 2 blocks of spears and 4 total stegadons (1 or 2 of which will probably be EotGs)?
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#134 Post by Musashi »

We need time to deal with these monsters, but by the third turn, they could already be attacking even castled positions.

It's somewhat unsporting, but terrain helps, hills with impassable cliffs, or rivers with fords, that either prevent a direct approach, or funnel he enemy units onto a specific path.
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#135 Post by Lord Anathir »

babalubeaga wrote:I would guess that focus firing w/ 2 RBTs and some archers would do the trick after 3+ rounds, the only problem comes when they bring more than 3-4 of these. We run out of RBTs (even with 4) at the 2:1 ratio and also having Terradons and Skinks ambushing our RBT crews.

With 4 total stegadons, a LM player could still have plenty of room for at least 2 big blocks of saurus, who are vastly superior to our spears. The spread shot would be vital to taking a few ranks off that unit to soften it up before combat.

Which brings up another dilemma:

Do you shoot saurus blocks with the spread shot or stegadons with the big bolt?

Even with max RBTs and taking into account LoS restrictions, it would appear that on average you could take down a stegadon about every other turn with 3 RBTs.

But would a saurus spear block be a better target assuming your opponent had 2 blocks of spears and 4 total stegadons (1 or 2 of which will probably be EotGs)?
In 6th edition I learned to target the support units. Ideally you can elimiate all support units, leaving the big blocks free to be redirected (eagles) to be either ignored or flanked. Winning or losing was based on how well support units were taken out. For this reason I liked 6th edition spears because if they flanked with ranks usually they'd break stuff. The problem now, with lizardmen and more or less all armies, is that there are too many support units and they are too resilient to shooting (or cant be shot) for this to work out. It started with wood elves... since then: treemen, anvil of doom, steam tank, star dragon, varghulfs, flesh hounds, stegadons, hellcannons. Every army bar orcs got something fast and capable of soaking up damage (except anvil of doom which screws up your battlefield control a different way).

Honestly I havent been able to change my playing style, I still try to do things the same way, but with less success now. Supposedly with ASF we're supposed to take charges, instead of redirect and avoid all charges like we did in 6th.

As for stegadons vs terradons, the rbt should focus on stegadons and archers on the terradons (archers are underrated a bit, they do have their uses). Knights and fast units can be positioned to stop terradons from landing in rockthrowing distance.

Its not that easy ofcourse, terrain and his magic gets in the way, and hes got other support units, and solo mounted scar vet heros/bsbs which are very good at taking out knights or tying up infantry. Scar vet bsbs are the best at holding up ranked infantry solo. With coldblooded, high toughness and armor save I had one hold up fully ranked spears with a bsb for a few turns until a stegadon hit it. He fought off +6 static combat res!

the best lizardmen army I've seen to date: has a slann, 2 units of 5 terradons, 3 stegadons, one with the engine, and 2 scar vets on cold ones, one with a bsb. The rest of the army are skinks that get in the way. I saw it castle against dark elf monster mash and win... It has solutions for everything and no weakness. Even against gunlines the 5+ ward save allows stuff to make it to the other side.
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The star dragon is a good list, but I'm not convinced it has the solutions to everything. For example, my generic high elf list with lvl4/lvl2 is capable of stopping the dragon lord, shooting the rbt and redirecting the dragon princes. Its not an invincible list. I dont think it can beat dual WLCs, which to my knowledge Mr. Spiers has yet to face with it.

What it does strongly is tackle the current the top lists in the metagame well, and that is why Mr. Spiers is an exceptional general.

Papaelf, it is true other players copy the list, but when they play in smaller tournaments or friendlies, other not so hardcore lists come out, like the high elf one or the skaven one I mentioned. In entirely convinced my friend's non thorek dwarf list would destroy that high elf list, no matter who uses the high elves.
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Wildling04
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#136 Post by Wildling04 »

Lord Anathir wrote:
babalubeaga wrote: With 4 total stegadons, a LM player could still have plenty of room for at least 2 big blocks of saurus, who are vastly superior to our spears. The spread shot would be vital to taking a few ranks off that unit to soften it up before combat.

Which brings up another dilemma:

Do you shoot saurus blocks with the spread shot or stegadons with the big bolt?

But would a saurus spear block be a better target assuming your opponent had 2 blocks of spears and 4 total stegadons (1 or 2 of which will probably be EotGs)?
As for stegadons vs terradons, the rbt should focus on stegadons and archers on the terradons (archers are underrated a bit, they do have their uses). Knights and fast units can be positioned to stop terradons from landing in rockthrowing distance.
Units of Saurus should be left until last, or until you are going to hit them with something, so I would agree with Lord Anathir's assessment that RBTs should focus on the stegs and archers should go after terradons, along with any magic missiles you have (though depending on your magic phase and his, it's true that this will be tough). Blocks of saurus should be left until last.

I'll add that I find it very frustrating to help come up with solutions to situations and then people pile on to the point where they aren't discussing real armies anymore. I get the impression that people think they are going to have to be dealing with multiple stegadons (scary, I admit!), multiple units of terradons , skinks, and multiple blocks of saurus.

That's just not the case. The list Lord Anathir posted is certainly intimidating, but it's a relatively small army. A tame 2250 list I faced had a carnosaur, a scar vet, a couple of blocks of warriors, some skinks, a sally pack, a single unit of terradons, and a swarm. Another list I faced had 3 units of skinks, two single sallys, 3 units of 4 terradons, an ancient steg with a hero with the lance, and a slaan in TG, skink priest, scar vet. Again not a min-maxed list (though I now despise drop rocks), but the point is that it's impossible to have it all.
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#137 Post by Foxbat »

To date I have played several games against the new Lizardmen and I have a losing record. In all cases my opponent has had at least two ancients, one regular steg, and a carni. All lists had at least one unit of Saurus and 2 units of Skinks (skirmishing).

As for my lists, they have ranged from Teclis, Archmage, and Prince on foot based lists. All of my lists are infantry based with at least 2 RBTs, one unit of Reavers, and about 10% Core. None of my lists have any dragons or dragon princes.

Based on both games I have seen and the ones I have played, my observations are as follows:
(1) Magic/RBT Heavy Lists: Archmage based versions appear to be taxed (i.e. loses more often than wins) beyond a total of 4 monsters (i.e. 2 ancients + 1 steg + 1 carni). However, the Teclis based version appears to be able to handle about one more steg provided the list has no less than 3 RBTs;
(2) Prince on Foot w/Infantry Lists: These lists appear to be easily bested by the LM with 3 or more stegs. A carni is this situation is just icing on the cake for the LM player. A possible version may be a HE gun line containing max RBTs, Reaver Bow, and Bow of the Seafarer;
(3) As the number of stegs increases, the tactics of the LM player become less and less sophisticated (i.e. they just drive straight across the board);
(4) The high number of “new” terror tests and on going fear tests that the LM can generate is a real problem for HE troops without specific psychology defenses. Too often I have seen such troops fail their leadership and flee off the board or fail to make critical charges when required; and
(5) The steg’s 50 mm front base is a real problem when a HE player charges from the front. Being only able to attack with 4 models (8 if spears) essentially ensures that the steg will survive along some crew. To avoid an auto break test, the unit must be at least 10 or so strong. This means that the commonly used MSU strategy by HE players may be weakened (at best) or rendered useless (at worst). Either way, it would appear that only cavalry should be deployed in MSU formations.
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#138 Post by superhighelves »

Musashi wrote: This method allows us to concentrate an inordinate amount of points at one point at one time and devastate one unit. If opportunity allows, overrun into another combat. That is the optimal use of this technique.
It's how I play my HE army.
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#139 Post by babalubeaga »

I agree with your assessment 100% Foxbat.

At this point I'm looking at the possible 3-4 WLC, Max RBT and Lev4/Lev2 type list to possibly bring down 3-4 stegs. Just curios if anyone has ever played against LM containing more than 2 stegs and brought 3-4 WLC to the table?

It does seem with the frontage and unit strength/terror issues concerning monsters with our infantry that we might need to take our strongest chariots and hope for lots of impact hits.

Wildling04 I appreciate your helpful suggestions, and by no means intend to pile on and pick it apart. I am mostly trying to come up with a solution against a list that looks basically as follows:

2 EotG
Skink Hero on Ancient
2 Stegadons
Ancient w/ blowpipe
Saurus Block
the rest of points on skinks

it is a very feasible army at 2k or 2250. I am sure that the Slann makes is all the tougher, but I have yet to encounter that list. My regular opponent likes to run Stegadon heavy.
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#140 Post by Wildling04 »

babalubeaga wrote:I agree with your assessment 100% Foxbat.

At this point I'm looking at the possible 3-4 WLC, Max RBT and Lev4/Lev2 type list to possibly bring down 3-4 stegs. Just curios if anyone has ever played against LM containing more than 2 stegs and brought 3-4 WLC to the table?

It does seem with the frontage and unit strength/terror issues concerning monsters with our infantry that we might need to take our strongest chariots and hope for lots of impact hits.

Wildling04 I appreciate your helpful suggestions, and by no means intend to pile on and pick it apart. I am mostly trying to come up with a solution against a list that looks basically as follows:

2 EotG
Skink Hero on Ancient
2 Stegadons
Ancient w/ blowpipe
Saurus Block
the rest of points on skinks

it is a very feasible army at 2k or 2250. I am sure that the Slann makes is all the tougher, but I have yet to encounter that list. My regular opponent likes to run Stegadon heavy.
No problem, and part of it to some extent is that we do multiple discussions going in this one thread, too. This thread has gone from "how do I take a stegadon down?" to "how do I take multiple stegs down?" to "how do I fight the entire variety of lizardmen choices all at the same time?," along with the occasional post that just complains about our list without anything helpful. Not that these aren't valid questions or concerns, but it does confuse the issue a bit.

I think your choices regarding WLC are good ones, and it does seem they are going to be more important in our lists from here on out. Also, if you are taking block troops. I'd go with a unit of PG if you can afford them. Finally, don't discount an eagle or shadow warrior unit that can tie up a steg through redirecting charges. Downside to those is that they tend to struggle to survive the shooting.
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#141 Post by ceyl-isha »

judging from your posts the best answer i can make from the puzzle of 4-6 stegs is lion chariots.we can take 7 at a 2000 point list with 4 bolts that leaves us with 1500 spent without core and only one hero.

high elves allways go for finess and dont do the lowbrow cheese lists like monster mash or min maxing well i think its time.

mmm stegs, the new kitty chow.
Stand and face your fears
in the end thay may be
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babalubeaga
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#142 Post by babalubeaga »

Good point Ceyl-isha, I forgot about taking a Korhil in a chariot. 7 WLC would be a little over the top, but so is 4-6 stegadons. I guess that is pretty much the closest thing we have to fighting fire with fire.

We would have all our eggs in a few baskets but so would the LM player. And with the higher M of our WLCs, we have a better chance of getting our charge in.
Lord Anathir
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#143 Post by Lord Anathir »

lion chariots arent equivalents of hydras/stegs/treemen/anvil/stanks/varghulfs.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
babalubeaga
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#144 Post by babalubeaga »

Equivalent probably not, but they are the closest thing we have. A Star Dragon can only do so much and it would be nice to be able to beat some builds without one.
1 on 1 a WLC can't take any of those things you mentioned but 2 of them stand a pretty good chance. Plus they are way cheaper (pts wise) than a unit of DPs with BSB.

Nothing is equivalent to Anvils or stanks or EotGs.

Star Dragons are there for Hydras, Stegs, Treemen and Varghulfs. WLCs could probably deal with these if we can bring multiples at a time. Matched up singly WLCs are toast, but if you could get 2 or more coming at the flanks they may be able to overrun into fresh combat a few times, dice willing.

They aren't the same no, but probably the best we got, and we can take a lot of them.
Wildling04
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#145 Post by Wildling04 »

I'd imagine twin linked lion chariots could take out a steg, or come close. Take out another with your bolt throwers and you're doing well.
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ceyl-isha
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#146 Post by ceyl-isha »

anti-steg army desure

2250

hero on stardragon with starlance golden sheild and dragon horn.
630ish

korhil on lion chariot
239ish

LSG x10 x2 no options

lion chariots x5
699ish

bolt throwers x4
399ish

my logic

dragon and hero has 10 st7 attacks that should kill a steg period and like I said stegs only real weekness is there low ws if you could call it that,so rerolling ws3 attacks on a lord and dragon should wiff 3/4, armour is moot to s6 and the dragon horn is to stop terror army wide.

the lsg are to keep the artillery bace safe and fill core, 1pt for asf spears is worth it to me.

lion C,s well 6 of them agenst 6 stegs with a dragon and good artillery is just win, thay can out manouver and doubble flank the stegs after a good round of shooting them down.

I think the trick would be to draw them out mid field and have a fue terrian of center left and right to hide your dragon behind and move your chariots behind him and rear charge him.

I would send 3 chariots left with korhil and 3 left with the dragon come round the back fire for a turn position all my lion chars for a charg fire for a turn blow the horn and have at them.

if you get hte first turn with 4 bolts thats 1 steg down for free if not i would hold position on my first and fire to let him dedicate himself to his strategy and then high tail it to position as long as the fire bace holds long enough to take down its worth in stegs i dont mind leting it distract from my real force.

If the dragon dosent take two stegs down in that game and the 4 bolts dont take down two I dont know what will.That leaves 6 lion chariots to take down two, something i think is totaly possible and easily done.
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RE.Lee
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#147 Post by RE.Lee »

WLC are unfortunately quite vulnerable to shooting - all those skinks and razardons could be a problem, especially since they skirmish.
cheers, Lee

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babalubeaga
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#148 Post by babalubeaga »

Ceyl-isha: I like that list a lot. I think that is probably the best option we have against a 4-6 stegadon list. We can only hope for luck in the magic phase as we will have little to no defense against the lev 3 skinks on EotGs, but with the offensive power this list could generate it might even make a LM player think twice about throwing his stegadons carelessly around the field.

We would need a little luck vs. their shooting, and a little luck against their magic (possibly swapping a WLC for a Lev 1 caddy) but that would probably be our best combat option against them.

Thinking about it, that game sounds pretty fun, I might have to try it against my brother next time we play.
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ceyl-isha
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#149 Post by ceyl-isha »

I dont realy think that shooting will be a problem as LM have low BS and with your high mobility you can stay out of range.And the same goes for magic but in a fue rounds and with somany targets there is little thay can do.

Maybe dump a lion Char for a cady like baba said to keep the dragon safe.

but i realy feel like if you just stay the heck out of range and LOS you will be fine.

like I said just cut the map in thirds a big open center and two small paths right and left heard them down the center and run up the sides if he sends anything down your little roads korhill or your dragon will take them out to dinner and a movie in one turn and be on there way.
Stand and face your fears
in the end thay may be
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Lhachmacar
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#150 Post by Lhachmacar »

chaosmaddie wrote:just hopefully the bolt doesn't get randomzied versus a skink instead and waste the shot, but thats the risks I guess
The hits are randomized. On a regular stegadon 1-4 hits the steggie, 5-6 the crew; on a stegadon mount 1-4 hits the steggie, 5 regular crew, 6 the character. This can actually work to our advantage in terms of shutting down the Engine of the Gods; a big bolt hit on a skink priest has a good chance of killing him instantly and if the priest dies the Engine shuts down even though the stegadon itself still needs to be dealt with. For this reason Rule of Burning Iron is also very valuable in terms of shutting down the Engine since the howdah gives the priest a 2+ armor save normally.

Re: Use of Lion Chariots: These are probably hands down one of the most useful units to deploy against Lizard Men (or in general these days given the amount of Fear flying around). A pair have a good chance of killing a regular stegadon outright but I've found they have a much harder time with the ancient. The Engine as usual is the fly in the ointment here, since each chariot is an individual unit.

Another option to try is a Prince in any format (though mounted would probably work best due to magic item points restrictions) with the Bow of the Seafarer to sneak an extra bolt thrower onto the board.
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