Observations on High Elven Wargaming

[Ramesesis]

Yes, Tethlisslayer, you nailed it pretty well.
Forces of Order have not gotten as shiny stuff as the evil dudes lately, bar the Lion chariot. Empire got not that many good minis. The new statetroops are very debatted and personally, I liked the puffy old ones better. The plastic Helstorm/Hellblaster is okay and so are the new Warrior priests, but still, the older priests where good and I think I liked them a bit more...

And bar Empire and HE, no good armies have been released sofar, if we exclude the halfway 7th ed. dwarves. Yeah, evil sells. Being the one fighting for "good" or Order is sooo uncoolll... I hate the new world we live in today, sometimes. Protecting the weak and defenceless is boring and lame, but butchering, rapping and butchering again is sooo cooolll...

Glad at least the last neutral army, Wood elves, got nice minis all, bar them Warhawk rider... They are not nice... But hey, you can´t get everything.

The Empire soldiers looks like morons, not grim or resolute like I think the old ones did, but like morons... Hey, I want my soldiers to look proud and stalwart! Grizzled, grim but unbeaten!

But GW cannot afford to make new shiny stuff for HE overall... No, they rather spend it on Dark elves, because they are evil and sell loads... And do not get me talking about Daemons... But then, the new Daemonettes and Bloodletters sucks compared to the 6th ed. metal ones. Bronze axes where the shit and far more logical.

But now lizzies are enroute, so at least we can hold our thumbs for Order to get some mean looking stuff. Well, we can always hope...

[Kithail]

Order armies are coming:

- Lizardmen
- Wood Elves
- Bretonnia

While the bad guys, with the exception of Khemri, are already done. Given the power escalation in the last books, they are going to be awesome.

I am thinking to switch again from High Elves to Brets, my second army, depending on the army book. I played Bretonnians in 5th, High Elves in 6th until the new brets came out, and in 7th with the release of the HE book I switched back to elvenkind. I'll go for brets as soon as their book is released until 8th.

[draxynnic]

Tomb Kings are more neutral, with the obvious glaring exception of Settra. While not under Settra's control, they largely act a lot like Lizardmen without a higher purpose - they defend their domains and recover anything stolen from them, but are overall more victims of Nagash than villains themselves.

They're not exactly good, either, but they're no worse than they were when alive.

O btw the way going back to what I said earlier about multiple shots: I actually meant that HE archers should get the option of either taking one shot at 3+ with AP -1 or take one shots at 4+ and then one shot at 5+ per round of shooting with no AP. These would be the options every round of shooting.

THat would make it an interesting thing, even as a temporary fix for HE, until they are able to remember the centuries of training that they have received and learn how to fire in two ranks while standing on level ground

About halfway, then. Not as good as DE as it, but still able to make the attempt. Possibly overcomplicated, but a reasonable compromise balance-wise.

BTW I always remembered WE archers kicking HE archers asses back in 5th edition even with the inclusion of shooting in two ranks. What do WE archers get now? Longer range +AP? Skirmishing, Longer Range and AP? That would make sense to me. Basic troops get this and then the more expensive the troops are the higher the AP.

I believe the current rules are that WE do not get penalties to hit for moving and shooting. Waywatchers get Killing Blow on their arrows (although they pay through the nose to get it...) while Glade Guard that aren't upgraded as Scouts get S4 bows at short range. Those that are upgraded as scouts also pay through the nose (they're more expensive than Shadow Warriors and not as good) but are still Core choices and are skirmishers rather than wasting half their firepower through being ranked up 5x2.

On a side note: Why does GW hate the forces of Order? Chaos is so boring, "We have unlimited forces, whenever you kill a sldier another six are born. We will destroy the world." Its so freaking boring. And I mean they spend all of their time creating new rules for those armies and making them better and giving them sweet ass models and stuff and then all the forces of order get jipped out of their minds.

Because to a lot of people out there, Evil Is Cool (Warning: Clicking on this link may eat your afternoon). Personally, I disagree, but I guess that's why I'm posting here rather than on Druchii.net.

[Musashi]

Because to a lot of people out there, Evil Is Cool (Warning: Clicking on this link may eat your afternoon).

Several afternoons. And if the computer you're running it on is RAM-poor, may be responsible for browser-crash.

Evil is cool, because those showcased characters can act without certain inherent inhibitions, and still not rape your dog.

[SpellArcher]

I think what we need now that ASF is here is a return to the original Ravening Hordes. Basic Elves carried 2-handed swords and Elf Bows (S4 Longbows)

Yes Evil is cool. But 'Good' has pathos...

[Musashi]

Musashi's Law on Dragon Mages

Don't bring more than one to a party.

Musashi's First Law on Dragon Mages

Never take more than one per army list.


Musashi's Second Law on Dragon Mages

Dragon Mages must always be upgraded to the second level.


Musashi's Third Law on Dragon Mages

Dragon Mages must always be equipped with the Silver Wand.


Musashi's Fourth Law on Dragon Mages

Dragon Mages should avoid close combat, with the following exceptions:

1. To overwhelm an enemy in combination with other friendly units and with the intent to cause an automatic rout and/or terror tests, and subsequent pursuit.
2. The Dragon Mage's player is gifted with clairvoyance and knows that his casting of the spell Flaming Sword of Rhuin will be successful this magic phase and/or will Remain in Play.
3. As an act of desperation.


Musashi's View on the Role of Dragon Mages

1. Winger - sprinting down the flanks creating panic.
2. Central defender - overwatching the rear area and second last line of defence.
3. Free kick specialist - long range artillery support.

[Musashi]

Musashi's Observations on the Radiant Gem of Hoeth

Seems pointless to be taken for a force over 2K.

[Musashi]

Musashi's Observations on Optimized Magic Item Selections for Princes

NS, (La), (GW), (Ha), (LB), Dragon, Griffon, Great Eagle, Chariot, BESt
VoD, AoC, AoL, (La), (GW), (Ha), (LB), Dragon, Griffon, Great Eagle, Chariot, Foot
VoD, AoC, ToL, BiB, (LB), Dragon, Griffon, Great Eagle, Chariot, Foot
VoD, AoC, SoM, (LB), Dragon, Griffon, Great Eagle, Chariot, Foot
VoD, AoC, SoBa, (LB), Dragon, Griffon, Great Eagle, Chariot, Foot
VoD, (DA), (Sh), SL, (LB), BESt
VoD, (DA), (Sh), RB, (La), (Ha), BESt
VoD, (DA), (Sh), BoSG, (LB), BESt
VoD, (DA), DS, FB, (LB), BESt
VoD, (DA), EC, FB, ToL, (LB), BESt
VoD, (DA), EC, CoB, (LB), (Ha), (La), BESt
VoD, (DA), (Sh), CoB, ToL, (LB), (Ha), (La), BESt
VoD, (DA), (Sh), CoB, BiB, (LB), BESt
VoD, HoF, (Sh), AoL, (La), (GW), (Ha), (LB), BESt
VoD, HoF, (Sh), ToL, (La), (GW), (Ha), (LB), BESt
VoD, HoF, (Sh), BiBa, (LB), BESt
VoD, HoF, (Sh), SoM, (LB), BESt
VoD, HoF, (Sh), SoB, (LB), BESt
VoD, HoF, (Sh), ToL, BiBa, (LB), BESt
VoD, TG, (Sh), AoL, (La), (GW), (Ha), (LB), BESt
VoD, TG, (Sh), ToL, (La), (GW), (Ha), (LB), BESt
VoD, TG, (Sh), BiBa, (LB), BESt
VoD, TG, (Sh), SoM, (LB), BESt


VoD, HoF, (Sh), SL, (LB), BESt
VoD, HoF, (Sh), SL, (LB), BESt
AoP, (Sh), GCoA, AoL, (LB), (Ha), (La), BESt
AoP, (Sh), HP, (La), (Ha), (LB), BESt
AoP, (Sh), ToS, (La), (Ha), (LB), BESt
AoP, (Sh), SI, (La), (Ha), (LB), BESt
AoP, (Sh), AoF, (La), (Ha), (LB), BESt
AoH, (Sh), HP,
AoH, (Sh), GCoA,
AoH, (Sh),
AoH, (Sh),
AoH, (Sh),
AoH, (Sh),
AoH, (Sh),
TG, (Sh),
AoC, (Sh),
SA, (Sh),
(DA), DS
(DA), EC
(DA),
HoF


MotM, BotS, SI, (DA) (Sh) (GW)
MotM, BotS, GP(DA) (Sh) (GW)
MotM, BotS, AoF(DA) (Sh) (GW)
MotM, BotS, AoF, GoC(DA) (Sh) (GW)

WIP WIP WIP

[Musashi]

Musashi's First Law on High Elven Archers

Someone needs to be shot.



Musashi's Second Law on High Elven Archers

Range beats power.



Musashi's Third Law on High Elven Archers

Maximum number of models (inclusive characters) in a unit not to exceed thirteen; optimum is nine.



Musashi's Fourth Law on High Elven Archers

One model must be upgraded to a musician.



Musashi's Fifth Law on High Elven Archers

Upgrading to light armour is pointless.



Musashi's Sixth Law on High Elven Archers

Deploy on flanks, unless you can deploy securely opposite an out-ranged, lightly armoured enemy unit or mono-wound war-machine.



Musashi's Seventh Law on High Elven Archers

Angle unit to maximize field of fire (optimum 45 degrees), while minimizing the risk of fleeing off the table's edge; 15-30 degrees should be optimum.



Musashi's Eighth Law on High Elven Archers

Never hesitate to consider flight as a charge reaction when faced with overwhelmingly superior enemy, unless maximum charge distance less distance to charging unit equals to less than six inches.



Musashi's Ninth Law on High Elven Archers

While deploying dual-ranked on a hill is considered the optimum positioning for any ranged unit, reserve this for RBTs or any other war-machine in preference to Archers; if deployed together, consider upgrade to Lothern Sea Guard, but not urgently so.

[Musashi]

High Elven Spear Formations


1. Thin Blue Line

SSSSCMSSSS

2. Fix Bayonets

SSCMS
SSSSS

3. Receive charge aka Hedgehog

SCM
SSS
SSS
. S

4. Block

SMCBS
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS

5. Phalanx

SMCBS
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS

6. Sacred Band/Companion

SMCBS
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS

7. Extended Block

SMCBSSCM
SSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSS
SSSSS .S

8. Spear Wall

SCMSMCBSSCM
SSSSSSSS SSS
SSS . . . . .SSS
. S . . . . . .S

SCMMCBSCM
SSSSSS SSS
SSSSSS SSS
. S . SSS .S

9. Extended Screen

SSSSSSMCCMSSSSSS
. . . .SS . . . . . . .SS

{SmSmSmSmSmSmSm}
. . .{SmSmSmSmSm}

[Eltherion]

Law of High Elf bows. If you shoot at T4 targets with armour, you are wasting your time.

[Musashi]

Oh, you optimist.

Would that be before or after you took account of their armour save?

[Musashi]

Interesting variant on castling:



easy sloping
hillside



BPgKPgC ..... SPEARS...................E V I L
SPgPgPgPg ... SPEARS................ T E M P L E
PgPgPgPgPg.............................................................................SPEARS
PgPgPgPgPg.............................................................................SPEARS
PgPgPgPg...................GOLGFAG

..............................SmSmSmSmSm
........RBT.....RBT.................................................................RBT.....Can
................T Am M

Note: One more Spear unit towards the right

BS - BSB
Sm - Sword Masters
K - Korhil
C - Caradryan
T - Teclis
Am - Archmage
M - Mage

Opponent old list Chaos, concentrated on three heavy cavalry, one warrior and two beast units, and Chaos Ogres. Warriors and 4 Khorne Chosen knights headed for the bastion, the rest converged on the castle and got in each other's way by the second round.

Lesson - force your opponent to conform to your battle plan, if possible.

Edited - forgot the Sword Masters.

[Musashi]

So, for those of you interested in letting your Archmage behave a more aggressive stance, consider the following:

Vortex Shard - really large games only

Annulian Crystal - not required if relying on AM/BoH Drain Magic; purpose more to annoy your opponent; suggested in small scale games; pointless against large PD opponents

Sigil of Asuryan - must be used strategically, and even then iffy; must pay attention when opponent is rolling his spells and then wait to attempt to destroy his most dangerous one; pointless when facing lots of magic-users

Starwood Staff - this is aggressive, especially when combined with a lore with lots of destructive low/medium cost spells; keep throwing out fireball variants or other annoying spells until your opponent runs out of scrolls or fluffs his dispel; problem, you need a little bit of luck to roll for your initial selection; combine with Ring of Fury, or more interesting, Reaver Bow or Bow of the Seafarer, no-one will permit you to cast Curse of Arrow Attraction; fill up remaining points with Power Stones

Seerstaff of Saphery - if you really need a spell so desperately that you actually need your Archmage to take it along, review your strategy; should in any case be issued only to Mages

Trickster's Pendant - only in large games, optimal with Drain Magic

Gem of Sunfire - risky; see Starwood Staff; pointless if the opponent dispels, unless the point was to force him to do so at this point in time; really requires coordinated timing preferably while your major units are in the process of assaulting the enemy, plus access to extra PD like BoS and one or two Power Stones

Ring of Corin - late game surprise, or once you're sure there are no more dispel dice or scrolls - optimum target magic armour or protection just before the enemy general gets into combat with your hero

Staff of Solidity - questionable value, when you look at the odds, especially as it works only once; however a Hard Boyz game with miscasts on double 1-3 highly recommended

Jewel of Dusk - really useful, fortunately or unfortunately, your Archmage can now load up on other gear; probably even more useful in the hand of a Mage

Silver Wand - really useful for Dragon Mages, and Archmages; pointless for Mages unless they have that odd 10 points available

[Musashi]

Counter-Magic Measures in sub-2K Games

This is not an area I ever needed to be bothered about, but a recent post made me consider the possibilities.

Because of the cost of our Mages in relation to almost everyone else's, I've come to the conclusion that on a head to head confrontation, High Elves will lose out.

There's no guarantee that a Drain Magic will go through, so the primary tool in our effort to curtail the opponent's Magic Phase is somewhat neutered. Also, since it's effects are widespread, rather than specific, it scales better when there are a lot of magic-users in the game.

So we have to fall back to Dispel Scrolls and Dice.

Annulian Crystal will steal a Power Die from the opponent, and give us an extra Dispel one. However, you have to sacrifice your two Dispel Scrolls. If you're facing only one Mage, it's a good trade-off, 4 DD against 3PD, and the odds are favourable that you could counter even if your opponent used a Power Stone, 4 DD against 5PD.

While some might wonder if Staff of Sorcery might be a good investment, it isn't at this level, since the number of spells cast per round will be limited and an extra die is worth more than a stacking +1 to Dispel.

Unfortunately, there are usually ways your opponent can buff his Magic Phase, and attempt to overwhelm your defenses. This could be achieved by adding a second magic-users and/or taking along bound magic items.

Since we cannot raise the bar for successful casting, we'll have to fall back to Dispel Dice.

If you have a major infantry unit, take along Caradryan. He has a Magic Resistance of 3, which is more than enough to defeat all spells cast by a 2nd Level Wizard, and since this is inexhaustible, that unit is for all intents and purposes invulnerable to Magic.

The Banner of Arcane Resistance will give the unit a Magic Resistance of 2, which means that if the spell cast against it is 7 and below, the unit needs not borrow a die from the Dispel Pool.

The Amulet of Fire gifts a Magic Resistance of 1. While a little puny in comparison, it helps relieve pressure on the Dispel Pool.

Then we have the Loremaster's Cloak, which delivers a 2+ ward against damage from magic spells.

So what would I do, if facing this situation?

While Dispel Scrolls can be considered a necessity, High Elves are more likely to be overwhelmed by a barrage of magic effects, so being able to draw dice from an inexhaustible well becomes vital.

While there is an element of risk, I'd issue the Annulian Crystal to the Mage, who can be first level, possibly Gem of Courage or Talisman of Loec (just in case).

Caradryan depends on house rules, but I know one poster who'll definitely take him along.

Amulet of Fire can be given to any Noble or elite Champion; Banner of Arcane Protection may be used by your Spear Phalanx, Dragon Princes, White Lions, Phoenix Guard or Sword Masters.

Why don't I recommend the Banner of Sorcery? Well, I'm more concerned with defense and even the BoS gives no guarantee that Drain Magic won't be dispelled. Assuming I was more concerned with offense, I'd combine it together with a Dragon Mage - this combination is unlikely to win you new friends and strain the bonds with your old ones.

[Musashi]

RBTs

The reason it's two in a 2K game:

1. There will always be a unit you need to kill off first, the second RBT is insurance.

2. They're bloody expensive and overpriced, but we have nothing else in our quiver.

3. Sometimes, your mage needs to chill with his homies, in a fairly protected place that has room for a view.

4. It gives the enemy a focus for his attacks, and you know it, but sometimes he doesn't know that you know, and actually set it up.

5. It gives a certain flexibility, without tying you down to one strategy.

Having said that, there have been times I maxed out on RBTs, but that's because I decided in advance that I would make the enemy come to me.
The 3 RBT/1 budgie mix is very viable as well, and probably the reason why slots were altered to permit only single purchases in the 7th Edition.

[lathian]

Having said that, there have been times I maxed out on RBTs, but that's because I decided in advance that I would make the enemy come to me.
The 3 RBT/1 budgie mix is very viable as well, and probably the reason why slots were altered to permit only single purchases in the 7th Edition.

Me personally, I say 2 RBT, a turkey and a merc cannon is the best mix. Another great reason for the wierd set up.

[Musashi]

Me personally, I say 2 RBT, a turkey and a merc cannon is the best mix. Another great reason for the wierd set up.

Last setup was 3K with 3 RBTs and a merc cannon. I didn't face any shooting, just Chaos heavy cavalry and infantry. Funneled the general's chaos knights and had a clear and lucky flank shot with the cannon hitting 4 plus BSB and general.

I hesitate mentioning DoW units in this forum, especially now that support's been cut off officially. But I almost always take along Golgfag (my group expects it of me) and one or more cannons. For 85 points, compared to 100 for the RBT, they are more than worth it.

Another unit worth mentioning, besides Volund, Miragliano and Braganza, is Al Muktar's Desert Dogs, which you place on the outside flank of Dragon Princes with BSB/BB - it's impossible to lose Combat Resolution.

[Ramesesis]

My buddy would most likely grid his teeth if I appeared with my sons Imperial cannon as a DoW cannon with my HE or WE, but I still am dreaming about making that Ielthan field ballista using Hot pot rules that I have been dreaming about for years.

[Musashi]

You know, it's quite possible for an Elven Prince to become an entrepreneur and decide to invest some gold that has little value to him in a human venture.

So he bought a holding or partnership in a foundry and would like the engineers to demonstrate their new toy. With live ammunition.

[Ramesesis]

And by that reasoning, a unit of some rash young elven nobles can have decided to get some adventure in the land of the Empire. Silver Helms as Empire knights anyone?

I could squeeze them into my rather ragtag empire force.

[Musashi]

Why not? Though I would think the adolescent hotheads in Marienburg would be closer to the action.

[Ramesesis]

Well, yes. Some elven punks from Elfsgementee that want to dash around and see the world!
While looking like pure foops!

[~Milliardo~]

Milli approves of cannon-wielding mercantile elven fops.

[lathian]

Well, yes. Some elven punks from Elfsgementee that want to dash around and see the world!
While looking like pure foops!

*Coughdishourablcurcough*

Unless you can fit all that into your other mentioned Empire army.

[Musashi]

Well, yes. Some elven punks from Elfsgementee that want to dash around and see the world!
While looking like pure foops!

Foops or fops? Unless foops is the Dutch/Frisian/German variant.

While non-traditional, the RBT-cannon combo is highly effective.

[Marwynn]

I know it's optimal to have musicians on Archers, they do seem to run a lot, oh those kids of ours!, but typically most go min core and they don't have 10 points to spare for the two Archer units.

The point where one considers spending 10 is where I would suggest spending 20 for one unit to be turned into LSG with Shields.

No law to focus fire if you have more than one Archer unit?

I wanna model the DE RBT with some HE RBT spare parts as my merc cannon. Some funky experimental thing. I dunno, I use a lot of gunpowder units in my Empire armies but lugging one around seems to chafe my Asur sense of propriety.

[Musashi]

If this is relevant to campaigning, you'll note that it's humans lugging around merc cannons, which means that unless you hitch them up to horses, it will slow Elven columns.

As Elves, we are in a bind when it comes to war-machines - the game only describes one, it's overpriced and there's no way to boost its effects.

Then you have a merc cannon, which though subject to misfire, is statistically reliable enough to have a major influence on the game. Plus, it's 15 points cheaper, and we have more than enough rare slots to accommodate it on our lists.

[Ramesesis]

Don´t worry, Lathian. I do indeed plan to get them into my Empire army.

They will get a better armour save and slower horsies, but hey, they will still be them elven foops! (That is, they will count as Empire Vanilla knight).

Thanks for reminding me, though.

[Musashi]

Tyrion
Teclis
AM/BoH
Mage/DS/Trickster Pendant
DM/SW/Skeinsliver
Caradryan
BSB/BESt, DASh, La, LB/BB

4 Cannons
4 RBTs

20 PG FC//BoS
12 SM ChampToL

3 x 10 Spears CM
1 x 10 Spears FC War Banner

Allies
Lucrezzia Belladonna
Borgio the Besieger
Leonardo di Miragliano
Wizard DS/PS
Wizard DS/DS

5 Golgfag Ogres
15 Long Drong Pirates
20 Dwarves GW, HASh
12 Dwarves XB HASh
15 Beorg Bear

10 Volund Venators
2'0 Miragllano Marksmen
10 Al Muktar
8 Duellists
20 Pikemen HA MS

Giants of Albion
Halfling Hot Pot