HE win another Tourney !!

[silentdeath]

Hi guys,

Here is another subject for you to get your teeth into and of course argue about LOL it was the strangest army combination I have ever used and I was staggered by the results, they won by a country mile, over +4000VP pts difference after the three games and of course three wins….. The funny thing was that is was designed to beat vampires and I didn’t even get to play them LOL !! Instead I play armies where my 90pts of magic items (well two games anyway) were totally useless! That’s three consistant performances in tournies now with three totally different armies, who says our book isn't good enough !!.. discuss at leisure...

I used the following army at a tournament on Saturday, 3 games 14 people.

Played -
Thorek gunline
Night goblin horde with 8 bolt throwers, 12 fanatics, 2 L2's L4
100+ model slayer army

High Elf Army Taken

Lord
Full armour and steed and lance
Seafearer bow
Ring of fury

BSB
Steed armour and lance
Reaver bow
Enchanted shield

L2
2 x scrolls, silver wand

L2
Tricksters pendant, scroll

11 seaguard shields

12 seaguard shields
Std and war banner

2 x tiranoc chariots

18 phoenix guards
Banner of sorcery

3 RBT's

7-9 PD, 4DD, 3 scrolls, 53 models

[Ramesesis]

Jesus!
That was some odd setup. So few units, no real fast stuff, but an interesting lord kit. And how did you use them chariots?

I guess you focused on trying to get the enemy to your place, with the help of magic and shooting. But why the lance on the lord if he was with an infantry unit? I guess he was sitting with the Phoenix guards.

Tell us more!

[Marinero]

Congratulations!

Would you post battle reports? I would be interested to see how you dealt with your opponents, all of which seem tough ones.

M

[aleondorxantress]

WTF

this is the most weird list I've ever seen.

you seem to play completely unbalanced army lists, I don't know how, but you pull it of with great succes.

can you give some battle reports? damn weard character set up.

did magic do anything? you got a shit load of shooting, but you don't have any marchblockers. 2 chariots and 18 PG, that's almost no combat at all.

I'm really interested to see how you did it. but still none of your army lists attract me

[Silver]

Hm, how exactly would this defeat Vampire Counts? You have nothing to be a monstrous VC general o_O

[Jhaantikaal]

Very similar list to what I have used with success before

Same character set up -but instead of tricksters pendant i had the seerstaff

Core - I used 20 spears with war banner and 10 archers

Special - instead of the chariots I just had 2 flanking units of DPs

Rare - 2 RBTS, 2 Eagles

It raised a few eyebrows at first but in all my games I never lost with it, against some very competitive armies - Skragg OK list, Slaan lizards, All knight brets to name a few of the tougher ones. The phoenix guard are immense, and the shooting phase is destructive, those magic bows are under-rated. You have enough magic to cause plenty of headaches also. I sometimes added in the ring of corin for surprise value (against the brets I destroyed the valorious std - on a unit about to charge my PG....)

[Marwynn]

Would love to read a detailed account of those battles, the list is interesting for sure!

[Spiked-Lord]

you cant stop winning the big tourneys can you?

[merkado]

Gosh you make lists that are soooo much fun....
I can't wait to try this one out

[Silver]

I just wonder where you put those heroes o_O the Prince and Noble with their magic bows..

[Ramesesis]

I would guess Prince with PG, so they get full ranks, and the BSB with the 11 strong Sea guard.

[Dendo Star]

See! What did I tell you! A nice fairly balanced list with Phoenix Guard. Stop making these lists! They are hard to kill. I asked nicely before, perhaps I could offer you pointy ears some candy?

[silentdeath]

LOL

Where do I start,

Well the reason for this list in the first place was as follows -

My friends and guys at the gaming club nigh on refuse to play me while I use a dragon, so they kept telling me to use a different combo, same for lots of cavalry, so that’s exactly what I did, next you will probably see one without wizards lol.

The set up was very particular for this army -

Phoenix in the centre joined by the BSB and lord, of course against thorek they went solo
Seaguard either side
RBT' scattered between the units
Mages one in each seaguard units

The lard lance etc is just in case he needs to charge into combat and support, the extra strength comes in really useful

Mages… this one is strange, two level twos just don't feel right for the massive amount of points you invest, and no they don't really do much early on, but if you can keep them alive they really add value and damage to when you want to finish your opposition off and claim a big win. That is the only time they really do anything when your enemy has little magic protection left.

The chariots actually really played a big part in the success and I will be using them again, they perform several tasks, they war machine hunt, their movement rate is staggering, baiting and fleeing is also fun.

Your right to suggest that the march blocking element was mising, so I would find the space to squeeze in 5 shadow warriors, the reason they were not in the list is I had none painted. Also for this army 2 x cheap units of reavers could be crucial so suit my play style

Shooting wise there is several really important rules which most guys just never seem to follow whgen it comes to using armies with fire power -

There should be a bespoke sequence to which units you target, i.e. fastest ones first or small units which can be wiped out to cause panic, units containing generals etc..
Never ever split your fire, you need to concentrate your fire on one or two units and wipe them from the table, with the army above not many units could survive two rounds of shooting. The two characters are crucial for finishing units off with great efficiency to add those last few kills you need to push for that all important panic check, the more dice your opponant has to roll the more he could fail
It is a real psycological boost when you wipe out a unit from the table in one phase, it will disrupt the other generals battle plan and punch a hole in his lines, he will then have to re-group giving you more time

The reason why this army would work so well against vamps -

3 scrolls which is so so important
Vamps have no protection vs miscasts so the tricksters pendant could be a game winner getting to choose a better result (end the magic phase… or even better kill the vampire LOL)
Shooting is a must vs vamps to strip away their ranks
Phoenix guards are good in combat vs undead because of the fear side if things and ward saves to stop the nasty vampire attacks
Magic is good too, you will find most vamps armies offer little in the way of magic protection, also if you get the ring of fury off by surprise it could really sway the game in your favour
Being able to have a character that can move 7" and position with a bolt thrower is really really good especially against the cheeky lone vampires

Hope this helps

Anthony

[Ramesesis]

Interesting stuff indeed! Never thought of tricksters pendant in that way. Glad to see other advocating firepower concentration!

[aleondorxantress]

the only problem I have with this list is: if your opponent manages to get to fast to the other side without suffering too much casualties you got a problem.

what about RAF? skirmishing armies like beast of chaos, WE, skinks etc, or horde armies which couldn't bother to lose a unit to shooting and which have other units to screen and they check on LD 10 most of the time.

and one real thing, you got a decent combat unit, but when you come up vs an equal unit, or an unbreakable one. you stay in combat and it's waiting for his support to arrive.

with 3 RBT's I have a great problem protecting them from lots of stuff, scorpions, came from below swarms, all sorts of flyers, fast cav. I often find that in the first crucial rounds of shooting I first have to eliminate the things that treaten my rbt's and then I can go and kill the heavy stuff. and you need to practically kill half the enemy army with shooting. and you got no marchblockers to guarantee you more turns and you got no decent magic offence to real add a punch. I know that your seaguards are there to protect them, but they get a lot of responsability, guarding the mages and 3 rbt's, that's a lot for 2 12men big units. do they perform that well? idd I can see them handling most flyer units and fast cav which is a very usefull job. and they come in to counter charge when the PG are in combat? I just would like to read some battle reports to sea how you manage to keep it all together and working

it's weard that I'm only saying weaknesses about the list, while you just won a tournament with them

[Silver]

Why would your 2 heroes go solo against Thorek? The Anvil cannot target US1 characters but mounted you are US2.. ?

But I agree with the wiping out an undead unit - the VC won't be able to roll single dice to raise the unit back up - forcing him perhaps to use more dice for bigger spells for a chance to miscast - that chance is very small still though. VC's Miscast protection is that they rarely ever need more than 2 dice to get spells off: Danse Macabre on 2 dice, being the best spell in the lore.

[Divine Wind]

Hey! Stop winning without eagles! You're making me look bad!

Another great result with another out of the box army list. Good show! Now you need to win with only spears and elite infantry - get crackin' on a list

[Yanda Sunstar]

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[Tirrith]

Maybe he is a great general? This fella has won tourneys already with "unorthodox" armies...

[Yanda Sunstar]

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[Ramesesis]

Yes, he obviously is a great general. It took some time to see the synergy of this army, but it can pump out a lot of firepower and with PG there is a chance of standing ground in close combat aswell.

[Tirrith]

This army has a lot of fire power. You would be dropping one war machine a turn or decimating a unit at a time with all this shooting. If he used both mages to cast Shield of Saphery there would be a good chance of protecting his weaker troops.

PG, with ward save, can stand up to the enemy fire as well.

This fire power would have put the enemy under pressure and force him to take risks that might not have paid off.

Well done again, Silentdeath.

[silentdeath]

God you guys are so so so negative LOL!!

Just so you know, meticulously plan out each army down to the Nth detail, and every point is well allocated to improve efficiencies. That is the key to every list, every unit and every item has a job to do, that is why the army looks so plain, simple and relatively weak.

Most of the time its not the army it's how you use it. Any decent enough player can do well with a relativley weak list, take the ogre player that often finishes top three with lists I could blow apart in seconds !

As for admitting defeat just by seeing a list written down, your very sadly mistaken and really under-estimating. You just play to suit the army your playing..

The 12 fanatic army is relatively easy to deal with if you deploy and play corectly. (Oh by the way did I mention the 8 bolt throwers?) I managed to release 6 of the fanatics in turn 2 alone and had two other units running by turn 3. two easy ways, one, draw them out with models in scenery close by, or two suicide a unit to release them and slow him down !

Thorek is really easy now, his gun line cant shoot you if you hide and use scenery to your advantage, and if you put your units into two buildings and hide then they take D6 damage rather than 2D6, you honestly can't expect me to be so stupid as to let him get a S7+ shot off at my chariots can you? Also the characters were safe as two of the machines were flaming anyway so they were immune, and were soon dead from CC in turn 2. pass your phoenix ards and no matter what you shoot them with they do not die LOL

Slayer army is very easily beaten by shooting and wiping out, baiting with chariots, fleeing then counter flank charging with the seaguard and shooting the hell out of him while I slow him down.

I do agree that the whole army is made better with a unit of scouts, but I didn’t have any as I said above !! With respect to dice etc, I had average dice, but the big big big big point your missing is that the army is designed so that they take less tests i.e. -

Unit sizes to minimise panic tests, deployment to minimise knock on panic tests, positioning of general for LD boosts, dice throwing on mages to hit averages and reduce mis-casts, then trying to do the opposite and make the opponent take more tests, i.e. strategic panics etc…I hope by now your getting the idea of what I am getting at?? Hence why the lion standard for cavalry is an excellent choice!!

The eagles point is an interesting one, but I think, why mess around re-directing and farting about, just get something to generate more instant kills i.e. a RBT, it suits my really offensive style of play.

Anthony

[~Milliardo~]

People do get rather negative, and some people have a hard time deviating from the 'gospel truth' mentality.

"You field chariots? B-but! Strength 7! It's such a waste of points!!1"

I don't know you, I don't have any idea how you really play, and both your winning tourny lists aren't something I'd take, but I am glad to see something beyond the cookie-cutter, 'safe' lists doing so well. You're obviously skilled winning tournies, but its amusing to see you doing it with what most people would consider 'weak' lists. Unorthodox FTW.

[silentdeath]

what a brilliant post !!

It is not half as amusing as it is for me, it makes winning so much more sweeter and much more of a challenge. My opinion for what it is worth is that you gain better knowledge of the game by using weaker armies and hence become a better player as a result !!

Anthony

[SquigFace]

Congratulations on another Victory Silentdeath!

Thanks for posting up your result; each list and tournement review you've posted has been though provoking- Your winning tournaments, and your winning using techniques that I wouldn't have suspected would work so well. Now its just a matter of working out from your list and what you've said what it is your actually doing and why its working... argh your such a tease! Wish I had seen this army in action...

Question; You said against Thorek (or other gunlines?) you can hide and use scenery to your advantage. This is understandable but in a tournament setting your trying to get as large a victory margin as possible.. how do you manage to both hide from the majority of his fire *and* beat him well- especially if he doesnt attemt to move towards you or into better firing positions? Are you prepared to play for minor victories or draws in such situations? Is that good enough? Or have you some sneaky method for acheiving greater results?

Being able to take two warmachine out on in CC turn two no doubt helps you towards that, I image that must have been the chariots but... how *did* you manage to get them into a LOS charge position with two different warmachine without your opponent managing to block either charge *or* be able to bring enough firepower to bear on the chariots to cause the measly amount of damage it takes to destroy them?!

Hope you can enlighten me! Cheers...

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

As we should all know, HEs can stretch a LOT of magic out of two mages, and a LOT of quality shooting out of 3 RBTs and a couple characters.

He's basically got the equivalent of 5 RBTs and 3 mages, backed up by nigh-unkillable infantry that causes fear. What's not to like?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Congratulations!

I really like the fact that you are constantly trying to find a new solution and show that different armies can win too. I just don't want to find out what you are going to achieve with new Dark Elves, when they are released.

It is not half as amusing as it is for me, it makes winning so much more sweeter and much more of a challenge. My opinion for what it is worth is that you gain better knowledge of the game by using weaker armies and hence become a better player as a result !!

I think I should forward that to a few of my very competitive friends.

I am looking forward to hear about your new army and its performnace, since you already have mentioned some changes to the above set up.

[Kithail]

First: congratulations! Well done! Good to see another victory for the Asur.

Second: i cant believe it! How can a list like this one win a tournement? Luck? Bad oppenents? Dice luck?

If i would play against this list with VC, Thorek or whatever, i m quiet confident i would beat you. Why didn´t the Thorek Gunline list shoot you to pieces? Why didn´t 12 Fanatics killed your whole army? Why didn´t the Slayer just "slayed" you? (ok, Slayers vs. Asf)

You got no strong Magic, no hard hitters, 3 RBT´s are great, but every fast unit could take them out easily. At least you would have to fokus on the fast units before you could fire on hard units. And 2 units of Seaguards cannot kill a whole army of dwarves! Hey they got T4 and at least 4+ AS (even with AS 5+ Seaguard alone cannot kill a whole Dwarven gunline).

And what about the Dwarven Warmashines? Did they do nothing? One hit and a Chariot is gone. Also Fanatics should crush any Elven Chariot without any problem.

If i would field exactly this list at my local GW Store, i would get beaten without problem.

Can you explain how you won against your enemys and please be honost: were your oppenents "nobrainers" or did the "Dice God" helped you a lot?

Yanda, are you the kind of player that think that you win just with the stats written in your army list?

Looks like that is the case. Strategy and how do you use, move, and manouver your units matters.

No matter how bad you list "looks", you can achieve victories.

[Yanda Sunstar]

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