HE win another Tourney !!

[Kithail]

First: congratulations! Well done! Good to see another victory for the Asur.

Second: i cant believe it! How can a list like this one win a tournement? Luck? Bad oppenents? Dice luck?

If i would play against this list with VC, Thorek or whatever, i m quiet confident i would beat you. Why didn´t the Thorek Gunline list shoot you to pieces? Why didn´t 12 Fanatics killed your whole army? Why didn´t the Slayer just "slayed" you? (ok, Slayers vs. Asf)

You got no strong Magic, no hard hitters, 3 RBT´s are great, but every fast unit could take them out easily. At least you would have to fokus on the fast units before you could fire on hard units. And 2 units of Seaguards cannot kill a whole army of dwarves! Hey they got T4 and at least 4+ AS (even with AS 5+ Seaguard alone cannot kill a whole Dwarven gunline).

And what about the Dwarven Warmashines? Did they do nothing? One hit and a Chariot is gone. Also Fanatics should crush any Elven Chariot without any problem.

If i would field exactly this list at my local GW Store, i would get beaten without problem.

Can you explain how you won against your enemys and please be honost: were your oppenents "nobrainers" or did the "Dice God" helped you a lot?

Yanda, are you the kind of player that think that you win just with the stats written in your army list?

Looks like that is the case. Strategy and how do you use, move, and manouver your units matters.

No matter how bad you list "looks", you can achieve victories.

Gosh......yes i m a nobrainer, powergamer, ruleabuser, cheater, etc. Whatever you like......

Forgive me that i asked a question. I hope i ll never do that again.

Didn't say any of those things about you.

YOU said you were able to beat him easily in your game table any time, just by taking a look at his list, and that for sure he won because either his opponents sucked, or because dice luck blessed him. That makes you the kind of player that think that can win just with the stats written in the army lists.

As clear as 2+2=4. Do not try to use a slippery slope argument.

[Ramesesis]

And Yanda, the way you asked the question could be seen as a bit rude. Sure, the army is small, but it can land a heavy punch. It do have magic enough, 7-9 powerdice + Ring of Fury is not to sniff at, especially when you have taken out some magic defence. They cannot start zipping on turn one, but let the missile and chariots do their work and you will get to cast.

The firepower potential is great. Focus all that on one target, even if we leave out the Seaguards to begin with.

you can send 4 bolts into a big target, and one will most likely hit on a 2+, the others on 3+ if within 30". 3 hits! Say a Dragon takes the pain, 1.5 wounds, but then, there is D3 wounds so 2-4 wounds in one volley. Not bad.
Now, if your target was a cavalry unit hit from the front, you most likely bagged 3 horsemens, or at least 2. Panic.
A unit of infantry... say a unit of Grave guards. Most likely 3 dropped at first, then 2 more and finally 1.
6 bastards taken care of. 7 if we put the Reaver bow into the equation. Now that is most likely a third of an elite unit. And with the scrolls and dispel dices, you stand a fair chance of prohibiting him form raising all back. And if you get of a Drain magic...
Repeat procedure next round and one of the most hard hitting enemy units will be out of commison.

Or if we play around with a general volley against an enemy missile unit, take dawi handgunners. You want them dead and dead now while they are out of range!
Chukka, chukka, chukka... 16 smaller bolts sailing through the air, 3 str5 and one big bad str6 bolt.
Big baddie skewer one dawi. Reaver take 1-2 more. 4 dies to the bolt thrower. A panic test and they are below half strength. Not so effective anymore.

[Voodoomaster]

keep it clean people, i am watching this.

[Divine Wind]

Unit sizes to minimise panic tests, deployment to minimise knock on panic tests, positioning of general for LD boosts, dice throwing on mages to hit averages and reduce mis-casts, then trying to do the opposite and make the opponent take more tests, i.e. strategic panics etc…I hope by now your getting the idea of what I am getting at?? Hence why the lion standard for cavalry is an excellent choice!!

Anthony

Anthony hits on a great point - the guy who can win consistently often is the one that rolls fewer dice. Not relying on dice to win you games pays off. He hits on a major part of this - eliminating the frequency of psychology tests and maximizing leadership. In addition to what he said, ranks and static CR are golden, since they can't be taken away by the luck of your dice - they only go away if your opponent can kill enough models.

A good example is cheap infantry. Why are skaven so effective w/infantry when they can't kill jack? Because you can go into every combat with a base CR of +4 (3 ranks, banner). So even if the dice are bad and they don't manage a single wound, they still stand a great chance of winning or tying the combat. The Skaven infantry horde wins so much because they don't have to rely on insane rolls of the dice to win. They make YOU do that

Anthony - I take the lion standard on the DP unit a step further by adding the amulet of light to the champ. Most of the things you would use the am. of light against are fear causers, so you now have the perfect unit to get rid of them.

[~Milliardo~]

I'd be very interested in seeing him field a more infantry centric army myself. I still think he'd do well, even if its clearly not his style.

[silentdeath]

I'd be very interested in seeing him field a more infantry centric army myself. I still think he'd do well, even if its clearly not his style.

And what exactly would you like to see in this army? Do i need to enter a really high profile tourney with a list that looks crap on the surface, tweak it and try and win, just to get the point accross?

or may i should try and win with no mages (obviously 7-9PD is weak) and no shooting (the equivalent to 5 RBT obviously is not enough) oh and no elite troops, and no chariots cause they are crap too, while were at it why don't we drop all the characters, how many core troops can you fit into one list LOL


Divine Wind well and truly has the right idea as does Ramesesis, I suggest you all take what they are saying a little seriously and your results should improve as a result¬!!

Anthony

[Lord Anathir]

I congratulate Anthony on his success, but I am dissapointed we have to revert to heavy shooting/heavy cav/dragon or a combination of them in order to get the job done. I was hoping ranked spears and not so heavy on the shooting could get the job done. His list is a gunline in disguise. I'm not trying to bash Anthony or his army, but I really was hoping against hope that mixed high elves as they were designed to be played would actually work.


I could've sworn I posted something like this yesterday. Are the mods deleting my posts?

[Lord Anathir]

Divine Wind well and truly has the right idea as does Ramesesis, I suggest you all take what they are saying a little seriously and your results should improve as a result¬!!
Anthony

Who says our results our weak?

[Stormie]

Anthony hits on a great point - the guy who can win consistently often is the one that rolls fewer dice. Not relying on dice to win you games pays off. He hits on a major part of this - eliminating the frequency of psychology tests and maximizing leadership. In addition to what he said, ranks and static CR are golden, since they can't be taken away by the luck of your dice - they only go away if your opponent can kill enough models.

Buh? He seems to have done so well because he rolls a lot of good dice- lots of bolt throwers, archers and even extra magic bows. And what keeps the Phoenix Guard in place? Their ward save- more dice rolled! Of course avoiding key psych tests is a very good way to play, which is why I like Phoenix Guard so much.

Still, it sounds like he played a great game. And he's too modest- I don't see it as "HE win another tourney", I see it as Ant wins another tourney after a damn good showing (Though drawing Slayers as an enemy is always nice when you have lots of shooting, very little of it at S5+). And even though his expensive magic was probably mostly useless. Jolly good show!

[~Milliardo~]

I'd be very interested in seeing him field a more infantry centric army myself. I still think he'd do well, even if its clearly not his style.

And what exactly would you like to see in this army? Do i need to enter a really high profile tourney with a list that looks crap on the surface, tweak it and try and win, just to get the point accross?

Sigh... you missed my point. I'm not trying to make you jump through hoops to prove a point. I was politely disagreeing with Anathir's assertion you need certain things to win and simultaneously stating that you're winning because you're a good general.

Careful there, your modesty is slipping.

[silentdeath]

Milliardo,

i obviously mis-undestood what you meant to say

As for dice, if you class 2 mistscasts on 2 dice in two of the games as great luck then....

The thing with reapers is that they are consistently good, i often get phases where they totally fluff, and others when they cause devastation they always seem to average out though in the end.

How much luck do you need to hit with a 2+ magical bolt thrower lol !!

I have a masterminded army for all of you guys next, which i am starting to test out, i will let you know on it's progress!! I will try it out at the next big tourney i go to

Anthony

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I have a masterminded army for all of you guys next, which i am starting to test out, i will let you know on it's progress!! I will try it out at the next big tourney i go to

Is this army tailored to deal with new Daemons, like the previous ones were built with VC in mind? If I remember correctly you were considering some light cavalry. Are they going to show up this time? In any case, good luck!

[Jhaantikaal]

Like I said, Im glad you have used that list to good success, especially having used something similar at the start of the year. May be tempted to dig it out agian now, but I also agree that it is a 'gunline in disguise'.

[Zethal]

How do you use and deploy the Seaguard?
They kind of seem to be flanking units, but if that was the case they would just be spearmen instead.

Do you deploy them on a hill and shoot with them?
Do you use seaguard instead of archers or spearmen to be more versatile against opponents? allowing you to use them in both the archer or spearmen role depending?

They also have a banner, one with a warbanner which I find interesting. Is this to prevent them from losing to normal archer killing units, like fast cav, flyers and the like?

[lathian]

I congratulate Anthony on his success, but I am dissapointed we have to revert to heavy shooting/heavy cav/dragon or a combination of them in order to get the job done. I was hoping ranked spears and not so heavy on the shooting could get the job done. His list is a gunline in disguise. I'm not trying to bash Anthony or his army, but I really was hoping against hope that mixed high elves as they were designed to be played would actually work.
I could've sworn I posted something like this yesterday. Are the mods deleting my posts?

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.

Also, yes, the mods are on an inquisition binge. I wouldn't worry about it.

Good job on the win silent death. I must say I wouldn't have expected it from that list.

[Lord Anathir]

I congratulate Anthony on his success, but I am dissapointed we have to revert to heavy shooting/heavy cav/dragon or a combination of them in order to get the job done. I was hoping ranked spears and not so heavy on the shooting could get the job done. His list is a gunline in disguise. I'm not trying to bash Anthony or his army, but I really was hoping against hope that mixed high elves as they were designed to be played would actually work.
I could've sworn I posted something like this yesterday. Are the mods deleting my posts?

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.

Also, yes, the mods are on an inquisition binge. I wouldn't worry about it.

Good job on the win silent death. I must say I wouldn't have expected it from that list.

Good job, you ignored the main part of the post.

I stand by my view of the list. It is a gunline. It is devoid of tactics. It is simply dice rolling and rock paper scissors. I frankly don't care what anyone else thinks, just as much as people won't care about what I have to say.

[lathian]

Sadly, the game seems to be designed to reward people who take gunlines. They are also common to both the stories of the Asur, and to their particular asthetic as consumate archers, leading me to assume that they are at least one method that was intended by GW. I would perhaps be more generous in this if you had said "a list that I think fits the high elves." as you seem to want less shooty, more spears, which is only part of their imagery, and not the singular of the "way they are meant to be played." I tend to get rather pissy about strong epistemic claims as opposed to soft ones, so in general, don't make strong existance claims or just ignore me. As is, your complaint is more just an insult to silent's list. (which is reinforced by your last post, actually)

[Ramesesis]

Indeed, Anathir, you do insult Silent and his list.
You are dissapointed that spearheavy HE does not win. Well, go on and win with them yourself! Prove they can win if you belive it.
I to love the spears, but we have to admit that the HE is depending on their warmachines and archers in the fluff. They rain arrows on their foes in the fluff pieces.
Raining death upon their foes is an elven thing, and it seems as if GW wanted that to be an option worth taking.

As I have said, I strongly belive GW developers have another view on the gunlines than some player have. To them, shooting heavy is a fluffy option. Think about it! GW promoted the gunline as a anti-HE tactic. For all our missgivings, I think we better accept the fact that GW wants us to stop saying gunlines are cheesy and boring and think about beating the gunlines so balanced armies will become the norm.

To beat a gunline you will however need firepower. There is not way your spearheavy phalanx will survive. The greek phalanx partially succumbed to the firepower of the light troops and had to adapt, turning greek armies into combined arms forces rather than infantry heavy ones.
A HE force should really not march without at least 2 RBT and 20 archers (or Seaguards) in my view. For me, that seems like a fluffy standard HE fire base.

Caledorians may feel "Damn the missiles! Full tilts!" But most elves will want to be able to drench the enemy in steel tipped death before wading in and send the rest packing. And you know what. It is a tactic.

[aleondorxantress]

the type of tournaments just have to change, no more special characters and no more options to take DOW as rares.

so then the special characters are already gone to worry about and now there's a bigger possibility that balanced armies might get a result and might work. I'm no fan at all of any of the named lists, the 5 rbt list of anthony, the 12 fanatics + 8 bolt thrower night goblin army, the thorek gunline (by far my most hated list) and the slayer army, honestly I haven't read a single army from anthony's reports (neither his own neither his opponents) that I like or would like to play against.

so it seems to be a common attitude to take such a lists and anthony doesn't seem, he really is one of the guys who excells at it, knows what list to bring and knows how to play it.

so no offence to you anthony, it's just that I dislike the tournaments you attend. I never met any of the armies you posted on a tournament and in the 2 years of gaming I attented like 15+ tournaments. so it's the tournament system over here that makes the difference and because of that there's different attitude on tournaments over here (although there are some real cheesers out there, but hey they don't come in droves and I never had 3 cheesy battles on a tournament)

[silentdeath]

Well,

I am not sure what to say to that lot..

Part of the problem is this country is that people do not believe in composition scoring, and hence I have never been to a tournament that has had composition scoring. In such an environment I actually think I would do better. If I had the money I would seriously be wanting to try out a few major events in america and try the different gaming atmosphere. So get saving I will, would love to compete in a large even there with different styles of opponants.

I do dislike people's negative views on here to be honest, as my only intention for any post was to add value and inform new ideas to HE generally. If the guys that are always slagging off are sooooo good then why are they not winning tournaments with their amazing lists? I only wanted to give you guys some inspiration and out of the box ideas. Seaguard are the perfect example of this, it's no surprise they are now being much more widely used.

As for cheese I could easily use a 5RBT star dragon list and blow everyone away, but instead I try to tone it down and still I am cheesy.

Just for information RE: the spear army discussion I have tried this on several occasions and do not believe that HE can afford such units. We need to get as much use out of the models we have, that means multi-use, flexible and efficient. For the addittional points a believe we get two units in one…. I will try to use an example…

For most of the game the unit is archers (ignore the 6" range which I believe makes hardly and difference), these archers also get armour. When they need to be in combat they become speamen, normally by this time the enemy is so close that we don’t need or even cant shoot at them anyway. Again two units for one price. Because they are spearmen it gives the opposition some doubt, because he cannot risk his light cavalry or other minor troops on the unit and expect too win easily. The banner/ warbanner just enables the unit to go for broke, I never ever use them offensively unless I am desperate and they normally don’t let me down. Normally in the case of horde armies I am confident or charging a ranked up unit, or one with a few models stripped off. Also if the seaguard last in combat for one or more turns it means your RBT's are not in combat and surviving and shooting longer !!!

So I intend to make this my last post here and wish you all the best of luck with your armies, sorry I could not appeal too and satisfy you all.

Anthony

[Pwmf200]

Personal I am happy to see someone doing well on the touranment circuit with HE, doing it with out a dragon is iceing.

[Ramesesis]

Indeed! I fully agree with you, Pwmf200!
And I am pretty ashamed about the behaviour of some members here. Al I can say to you Silent is:
Do not give them the pleasure of seeing you leaving!

[Paraicj]

Silent death, your lists have proven themselves to be winners, well done! But I wouldn't worry about people disagreeing with them, that happens everywhere. Sports, gaming, any competitive atmosphere. All will have their fair share of contradictory opinions.

Just because you won with a list doesn't mean pople have to like it. And giving up because you can't change peoples' minds on the internet? Nobody changes their opinion on-line!:D That said, the discussion should have been kept more civil.

Stay, and tell us moreof your tourney winning. It's always good to read, and I for one find the discussion afterwards to be very interesting, from both sides!

[~Milliardo~]

Indeed! I fully agree with you, Pwmf200!
And I am pretty ashamed about the behaviour of some members here. Al I can say to you Silent is:
Do not give them the pleasure of seeing you leaving!

Here, here! We're not all negative. Some of us are fluffy monkeys like Rammy, or idealistic nutcases who'll write an entire list around one model, like me. Ignore the jaded posters if you must.

Did I mention I like using mage knights?

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

Just for information RE: the spear army discussion I have tried this on several occasions and do not believe that HE can afford such units. We need to get as much use out of the models we have, that means multi-use, flexible and efficient.

An excellent observation! I currently use 2 spear blocks (mainly for the look of them), but will give seaguard another thought based on your comments. When I originally started building HEs I really wanted SG but gave up because of the cost.

I've enjoyed reading your reports as well, mainly because the army I've been building has very similar elements. And though I've had good success with them so far, its good to know others are having success competitively with it.

Finally, save up that cash for the July 2009 Necro down here in Orlando, Florida. Jhaantikal is already trying to attend, and I'm sure he'd like a travelling buddy

[Tirrith]

Silentdeath,

I come from Australia and we have a completely different tourney scene to many of you guys (very comp dominated). I am not attracted to the lists you play with and the lists you play against. But I read your battle reports and always gain something, new ideas, use of troops, tactics etc...I definitely appreciate what you have done and how you share your ideas. They have been of great value to me and others on this site!!

I think you are expecting too much to want everyone to agree with you and your army design. If you read the "negative" posts, they are not attacking you but just the environment that you have played in. Saying this, there are many gamers who do appreciate the same scene.

The fact is we all have our own opinions and we need the different opinions to have a forum. On a similar vein, I am not a fluff bunny but still appreciate the posts by the fluff gamers, I read them as well. I reiterate, variety is what keeps us all interested. If we all agreed, how boring would it be?

Please keep posting your reports and army ideas. Even with a comp heavy scene like Australia I gain insight and ideas for my own armies and tactics.

Cheers.

[Marinero]

Hey Anthony,

I am sad and bemused to see you want to leave, because of several users, who are not acclaiming your ideas and success.

If one goes through the replies in your thread, one cannot help but notice, that most of the posters, myself included, are highly appreciative and positive about your list, success and innovative ideas.

I think that you should expect both positive and critical comments and focus on the most important issue with the internet forums - exchange of ideas and.. fun

Please do not leave!

[langbaobao]

Hey Silentdeath, don't leave!

Lang will bash the unpolite ones on the head.

But seriously, I enjoy reading your posts and especially your lists and reports. After all you're one of the top ranking HE generals out there so having your input on list building and tactics is very nice. Some people might disagree with you and have critic posts but you shouldn't take it to heart. Most are probably due to the fact that they're used to comp environments (like where I live) but IMO one can learn a lot about possible tactics even in comp environments from no comp environments. I for example will give the double LSG tactic you've been using a try when I get the time to get a few games in.

[Prysitha]

I never used LSG before but now I take at least 1 unit of them with 1 unit of archers or sometimes 2 LSG units. They work just as Anthony say they do. My opponents are hesitant to charge into my LSG with their light cav or flyers but will not think twice charging into my archers.

To be honest, the first couple of times fielding LSG, I was not comfortable with them and thought that Spears/Archers would've performed better. As I got more comfortable on their roles after a few games they are now a must in my lists.
Wood Elves shooting 40-60 bows a turn, Skaven/Empire/Dwarves all have better gunline than High Elves and I think fielding 20 arrows + 2-3 RBTs are quite acceptable. High Elves are suppose to be a bit of everything. Infantry, Cav, archers, warmachines, eagles, maybe some magic. Try it, it works pretty well.

[macdaddy]

Wow. Great job with that list.

Did you fight any war alter/steam tank or Brett armies? I can see how it would do well against most traditional infantry foot slogger lists, but against any army that has good mobility, I can't imagine how you wouldn't struggle. Terrain can only buy you so much protection.

I don't think I would do well with that list at all, I have been playing BoC too long, relying on mobility and attacking aggressively. I imagine you did more of a hanging back and blasting before committing to combat, almost WE style.