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 Post subject: Locking topics
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:34 am 
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RogueSun wrote:
... Couple that with an almost Iron Curtain style lock down of conversation surrounding Khaine by the mods and it's culminated into a very negative view on the whole book.


I'm largely to blame for this, almost exclusively I believe.

The reason I had for closing threads was because they in my opinion were all about the same. I personally believe there are still too many threads on the ET topics around. I believe this to be a problem because the information is so fragmented. I have to scan 4-5 threads to find what I'm looking for when they're all basically about the same.

Yes, I was too harsh about it, but I was tired of seeing the same 2-3 duplicated topics spring up every day. I apologize for the way I handled this, it should've been better on my part. I still believe that closing said topics was the right thing to do though. Feel free to disagree, but please provide a specific example along with why closing it was a bad idea in your opinion.

Our intention is not to have any kind of Iron Curtain style lock down, simply to keep the forum clean. I was a big fan of when we had 2 threads on ET: One for rumours, one for fluff discussion. Now we have half a dozen and people don't know where to post.

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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:53 am 
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Voodoomaster wrote:
Did it occur to anyone that perhaps they are saving new models for when the eight avatars are completed? :twisted:


Like Nagash? :)

I don't know if it is a coincidence or a patter but if you look at the armies featured so far you could notice that:

1. Empire is in the fluff of 2 books but has no models - Half of the country is destroyed
2. Bretonnia is almost gone - no new models
3. Ulthuan and Naggaroth destroyed - no new models
4. Tomb Kings destroyed - no new models

At the same time armies that seem to succeed:

1. Nagash and Vampires - new models
2. Chaos - new models
3. Skaven - new models (although we don't know yet how they are going to succeed)

Curu Olannon wrote:
Our intention is not to have any kind of Iron Curtain style lock down, simply to keep the forum clean. I was a big fan of when we had 2 threads on ET: One for rumours, one for fluff discussion. Now we have half a dozen and people don't know where to post.


Some people prefer discussing things in separate topics. They might overlap but don't need to be the same. It is one thing to discuss ET: Khaine background as it is and different when you want to predict what it means for the Elves in the future. Even if the topics are duplicated simple merging topics would work much better here.

If you wanted to have one topic for rumors and one for fluff discussion, why did you start this one: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67623 ? Think what kind of message you send to other forum members when they see their topics locked why you claim to keep the forum tidy but start your own thread that is duplicating the existing one. Double standards comes to mind.

The same goes for other sub-forums. One topic in tactics is dominated by army list discussions yet it keeps going without any problem. Other were locked immediately where simple move to army list sub-forum would solve the problem. Even if again, one could conclude it is not exactly fair. But at least you would not discourage people from posting.

RogueSun wrote:
And this is exactly what I mean. Yes, it's an absurd story. But that's all anyone wants to lament. They don't even want to acknowledge the fact that we were just given access to 2 ENTIRE armies and their goodies. We can now get 1+ armor save BSBs. We can now have the most badass shooting list ever. Or that High Magic became the best Lore in the game under the new magic rules. If you don't like the fluff, don't follow it. Convert some cool model to be your army general and use Malekith's rules for it. I just don't see why we need a 17+ page thread of this: :cry: :cry: :cry: [-( [-X [-( :cry: :cry: :cry:


I had many personal reasons to discuss such armies. My own story is about Outcasts, I can easily justify any single unit in my army now. All 3 Elven armies have a great potential for MSU style. Although I don't like the idea for the story itself and don't plan to expand my army with new regiments yet, I would not mind to discuss the options with other members interested in this approach.

It is different enough that it might not be useful for players who use other armies. So contributing to the more general thread would be counterproductive as it would generate posts other players are not interested in and make it more difficult to find the relevant ideas for those interested. It is not an immediate thing to do for me, hence I haven't written about it in my army blog. Hence, it would be perfect to contribute to the separate topic. And such topic was even started in Tactics section. But guess what, it was locked. :)

Aicanor wrote:
Don't know exactly what it is about the new models, but last I really liked was Skycutter (even with all the operational difficulties) . It's something about the slightly wrong poses, or the wedding cake syndrome (=>overdone). There were a few other OK kits since, but nothing really caught my fancy.


It would not be the first time where the pictures would not give the model justice. It indeed can be posed wrong or has too many details. But when was the last time you had a model with 5 different options and rules to support it? And the rumor has it Vermin Lord is not the only model to be released, I am also looking forward to seeing new armored Rat Ogres :)

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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:37 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
Our intention is not to have any kind of Iron Curtain style lock down, simply to keep the forum clean. I was a big fan of when we had 2 threads on ET: One for rumours, one for fluff discussion. Now we have half a dozen and people don't know where to post.


Some people prefer discussing things in separate topics. They might overlap but don't need to be the same. It is one thing to discuss ET: Khaine background as it is and different when you want to predict what it means for the Elves in the future. Even if the topics are duplicated simple merging topics would work much better here.

If you wanted to have one topic for rumors and one for fluff discussion, why did you start this one: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67623 ? Think what kind of message you send to other forum members when they see their topics locked why you claim to keep the forum tidy but start your own thread that is duplicating the existing one. Double standards comes to mind.

The same goes for other sub-forums. One topic in tactics is dominated by army list discussions yet it keeps going without any problem. Other were locked immediately where simple move to army list sub-forum would solve the problem. Even if again, one could conclude it is not exactly fair. But at least you would not discourage people from posting.


I asked you to provide a specific example where closing was wrong. You failed to do so. Instead, you post something entirely different. Let me explain to you the difference between my thread and the X other ET: Fluff discussion threads. My thread is about a specific analysis, a theory about why this is the way it is. While it is based on the fluff, necessarily, it is not a fluff discussion per se.

If you think that's double standards then again, please provide a specific example.

As for army lists discussion dominating tactics, this is inherently a necessity at times. The tactics you can employ do depend on what list you're taking. I don't see the problem here.

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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:17 am 
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We both know that you are not going to take my criticism seriously and will always attempt to prove it is not valid just because it comes from me. And no amount of reasoning is going to be ever good enough for you, just because it comes from me. So I am not going to waste my time on discussions with you.

I don't mind if anybody starts topics that don't necessarily fit into particular sub-forum profile. I don't mind if anybody duplicates topics.Even if such topic comes from you. I am just standing up to the actions that affect the forum in a negative way. Such as abusing moderator powers and locking topics where other actions are possible and are better solutions.

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:51 am 
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You might want to re-read the original post of this thread. This started with an apology from me, along with an explanation, which is basically an invitation to the rest of the members saying "I'm sorry if you all perceived this as an Iron Curtain, here is why I did what I did, how do we want this to be in the future?". The problem with discussing this in a general sense is that "everyone" agrees that a lot of ET topics were indeed duplicates and needed to be locked down or dealt with somehow. Hence my request for specific threads. So, I will ask one final time, can you please provide a specific example where you felt closing the topic was a poor decision? If not, your implicit point of view is that the actions were ok. Also, refrain from littering your post with ad hominems. It adds nothing to the discussion and is against our guidelines, which you seem so adamant to protect and uphold.

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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:29 am 
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To be fair, Curu, this sounded like a bit of a discussion thread. I feel that you intended this to be something more like:

"Sorry, I closed down a bunch of ET threads as it was getting hard to keep track of everything. If you'd like one reopened, please let me know. It really needs to be a decent reason to be reopened though. Thanks in advance."


How's that, sounds right?
(I'm just trying to clarify the purpose of the thread)

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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:03 am 
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You are fully aware which topics I am talking about but here are the examples:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67868

This question could have been easily moved to another topic. Your reply was rude too. The forum member did nothing wrong, in fact, he pointed out an important information for AB users as apparently the EK list there is wrong.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=67639

This topic was also easy to move to Army List section. There was absolutely no need to lock it down.

As to not being personal, the problem is connected to a person, you and your attitude. If you want people to stop being personal maybe you should lead by example? I presume you have already forgotten your very personal posts full of spite and arrogance in this topic?

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=67152&start=90

Also, stop pretending you have good intentions of support and help. Above topic says enough what you really think.

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:00 am 
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NexS wrote:
I'm just trying to clarify the purpose of the thread

Actually, the main purpose of this thread is getting it out of the Tanquol tread. It was seriously derailing that topic.

Also, there have been a few passing remarks about the closing of topics from different forum members. So, I'm interested in knowing when people think a topic should be kept open and when it should be closed. In my mind it's a difficult thing to get right. Don't close enough of them and you will end up with dozens of similar topics who just confuse people and scatter the discussion all over the place. Close too many and people feel like they're not allowed to post a valid topic and like there is too much control from the moderators.

I think in this case we were a bit overenthusiastic with closing topics. At least, that's the feedback I've seen. And perhaps the manner in which they were closed could be improved. Both are things that we'll work on.

The question then remains: when do people feel a duplicate topic should remain open and when should it be closed?

As a side note, if indeed you feel like a topic should be reopened for some reason let me know. You can either post here or send me a PM.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:41 pm 
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Finally we are getting somewhere! Wonderful things happen when we co-operate :)

Ok, so example 1: Closing a rules question. Yes, it was a rude way to do it and yes I could've handled it better. At its core though, it's basically like asking "I don't have the HE book but can someone please tell me how many points the BOTWD costs?". Regardless, I agree that this was handled poorly. This exact thread has been discussed internally as well where I made the same point and other mods also called me out for going out too harshly, but our common understanding is that the closing per se was not the problem.

Example 2: ET: MSU. There were already multiple other, similar threads running at the time. Instead of closing, I could've merged it, but merging is more work for me than copy-pasting is for the member, besides merging removes the entire thread which can be a bit of a "wtf?" moment. Again though, I'll agree that this could've been handled better: Based on the premiss that said thread should be closed, the best approach would be to merge with an existing ET thread and PM the author about it. Agreed?

Example 3: Not really an example. You need to separate case from person. Besides, the discussion in this topic caused a big issue, as you well know. You were invited to discuss and present your point of view by the Loremasters, which you declined. When you declined that offer, that case closed. Bringing it up now serves no purpose.

Quote:
Also, stop pretending you have good intentions of support and help. Above topic says enough what you really think.


You are not omniscient. This prejudiced statement, while blatantly wrong, again has nothing to do with the topic at hand here. The topic we are discussing is the practice we are currently employing for locking topics. As you can see from your first 2 examples above, we are actually engaging in a meaningful discussion about that. Again, my intentions and posts were subject for a discussion you declined to take a long time ago, so you don't get to bring that up as an argument now.

@NexS - Of course we are willing to re-open threads that have wrongfully been closed. This topic is also about discussing the general practice though, and of course us (in practice, me) apologizing for our actions where we(= I) have done something wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:48 am 
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Ok, Curu, I am sorry. It is my official apology. For my recent harsh responses and any previous misunderstandings. I feel embarrassed I got out of control again.

I am willing to start it again, to try and get all the differences fixed. I know we both assume the worst intentions in each other so maybe, for the greater good, we should give ourselves a chance to make it right.

Let me know if you are interested.

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:13 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Ok, Curu, I am sorry. It is my official apology. For my recent harsh responses and any previous misunderstandings. I feel embarrassed I got out of control again.

I am willing to start it again, to try and get all the differences fixed. I know we both assume the worst intentions in each other so maybe, for the greater good, we should give ourselves a chance to make it right.

Let me know if you are interested.



Finally! This pissing match between the two of you has got to end, it's really effecting the forum. Recently its had a team Swordmaster or Team Curu vibe. I appreciate both of your insights, perspectives and what both of you bring to U.net and will be much relieved if we can get this worked out.

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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:57 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Ok, Curu, I am sorry. It is my official apology. For my recent harsh responses and any previous misunderstandings. I feel embarrassed I got out of control again.

I am willing to start it again, to try and get all the differences fixed. I know we both assume the worst intentions in each other so maybe, for the greater good, we should give ourselves a chance to make it right.

Let me know if you are interested.


Apology accepted. For all I've done to contribute to this (which is, necessarily, quite a bit), I'm sorry as well. Now let's leave the past behind us. I'll let bygones be bygones. Time to strive for making Ulthuan the best place it can be :)

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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:53 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Locking topics
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:58 am 
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Thanks, Curu!

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