Rod Why did You Edit MY Post in this conversation?

[Lord Anathir]

I voted scraping the bottom. Is there any other army worse at killing monsters, more vulnerable to warmachines, uber characters and deathstars (which is what 8th edition is about)?

My opening line in the thread. The vote I cast and my reasoning behind it with a non offensive rhetorical question.

I voted scraping the bottom. Is there any other army worse at killing monsters, more vulnerable to warmachines, uber characters and deathstars (which is what 8th edition is about)?

Is this a joke?

A troll post with no evidence or logic.

No

Me not getting trolled, giving a simple answer to a simple question.

Do you not play white lions or something?


How exactly are we bad at monster killing? Many deathstars are Cavalry(see Whitelions), and all deathstars can be redirected by eagles. Most characters need to worry about some of our characters or can be countered by characters we have.

The only weaknesses we really have are our models cost and frailty, and lack of of a non character mount monster/monsters cav.

High elves are clearly not in the top 3, but so what? 12 other books aren't either.

The vast majority of competitive players use WL, which HE KNOWS, so therefore his opening question is once again an insult to my level of play. Then he continues with in my opinion flawed but granted unoffensive reasoning. Its perfectly in his rights to make whatever tactical comments so I have no problem with it.

I'm not playing High Elves at all right now. But everyone who I observe uses them (and many with a dragon as well, like I used to).

WL can't be the solution for everything. Even if the high elf list has another target unit (like a star dragon), most armies have separate tools to deal with infantry blocks and monsters. Basically what I mean is that cannons and the like shoot at the dragon while the pie templates and tank characters go into the white lions. Good players dont just leave their mobile monster in a position the lions can charge it. They go around the flank and munch the archers/spears or hit the lions in the flank where they have 3-4 attacks before the abomb/hydra/whatever destroys cripples the unit.

If HE were upper middle, wouldn't we see more people win tournaments with them?

Again I say nothing offensive here. I have a right to comment tactically. I have attacked no one. Please note I refrained from telling him to piss off regarding his white lion comments, which I would have in real life if he would've told me to my face. But then again his comment was so insulting "don't you not play white lions or something" as if i'm a scrub, that he wouldn't have the stones to stay that to my face anyways.

1) you can take multiple WL units, both can even be around 30 models if you want!
2) While Dragon lists are popular, they aren't automatically the best build. If I take no monsters of chariots, what are cannons really doing to me other than hoping I fail lookout sirs?
3)If your monsters are staying back, that's cool, I will shoot/magic them dead, "dealing with" doesn't always mean killing outright. if the abomb only kills one unit of archers and an eagle (for example) that is often the only thing in a skaven list I don't want to fight. Why is this bad?
4) not every army has pie templates, and even a weakened unit of WL can still be hard to deal with for many armies.
5) I never said HE were "upper middle", and not being "upper middle" doesn't mean they are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Winning a tournament is on a player, not an army. That said, most top players don't feel that HE have the reliability to win them a GT, either due to the frailty/overcostedness I mentioned before or due to local meta/matchups.

Again with the white lion comments as if I don't know I can take 2x30 and that its a competitive option.

While I hate these sort of theoretical discussions, if we're going to have one you should at least be realistic.

3) high elf magic and shooting isnt going to down an abombination excluding luck. you have to have high strength banishments or pit of shades basically, which the skaven player fails to dispel. RBT wont survive gutter runners and while massed archers (50-60) will put a wound or two on it, it is unlikely that all the archers are going to be able to have a chance to kill one. Skaven players here use 20+ gutter runners, and if there are no rbt then archers are going to take the brunt of the damage. They'll come on cripple the unit most threatening to the abomb position wise and force the archers to turn to face and deal with the threat or face front and shoot the abomb. End result? Ranged attacks not going to kill it. Abomb will go around the outside of the vision arcs of the WL blocks (HE have no flank unit capable of dealing with abomb) and either go for the core or go for flank of the lions. Lions have to choose between skaven template spam or turn to face abomb. Maybe a pit of shades or a lucky tank character can drop 1 abomb, but the second should have free reign.

This is what I mean by realistic. Not assuming you will play a chump with a poor list and have every dice roll go your way.

I'm not going to bother to continue and expand my points on HE vs monsters/templates/solo characters (their banes) because really there is no point to what imaginary tier HE are and we will never agree anyways. But if you insist on continuing this discussion I have no issue with continuing the discussion.

Edited: please attack the content of the post, not the person posting it.

Thank you,

Rod

The part that was removed was "But if you insist on continuing your unrealistic condescending comments I have no issue with continuing this discussion." Tell me, is that something that warranted an edit?

Aww, I am disappointed that I missed whatever personal attack LA made. But good to see he is still making them

Anyways, onto serious discussion. In the efforts of full disclosure, no event I've played in, in the last 2 years has allowed double HPA. Most don't allow double cannons. I also didn't say it was easy to deal with. Just that we do have tools. I NEVER said to use RBT and for the most part I would never even consider taking them in a list. The point I was making was that you can set it up so that IF THEY WANT TO BEAT YOU THEY HAVE TO COME GET YOUR POINTS. Ok, so a HPA is avoiding my main battle line and going after the flanks. Cool. What do I have over there exactly? Skaven is probably one of the worst matchups for HE, yet it is the only one you mention.

Coven of light handle's HPAs pretty effectively and is generally considered a competitive build. Discuss.

So again more sarcasm from Keith and no edit again on his posts again.

I said it was condescending for you to say I could take 2x30 lions (I was offended that you felt the need to tell me this as if I didnt know). I didn't even say it out of anger or anything. No swearing or anything so I don't know why it was edited out. I've gotten away with worse. And as always ulthuan.net admins edit my tame posts and not the mountain of sarcasm I always see. But anyways..

I play in a no-comp environment (just special characters banned). 2 abombs/2 hydras/3 cannons or GT and so on. So I think that just because of this we could end the discussion here. No point in arguing about settings neither of us have experience in.

Once again I am quite civil even after 4 or 5 insults.










Rod, could you please explain to me why you singled me out? I am expecting a formal apology. Just because this is the internet doesnt mean you can say and do stuff without justification.

[Prince of Spires]

First of, I stand by my desicion and I'm not going to reverse it. If you don't like what I did, you can make a complaint with the loremasters. Eldacar has the final say in any matter, so you can always pm him. I'll tell him to take a look at this and the other thread. If he feels the need to comment I'm sure he'll make it known.

Then onto the reason why I stepped in.

The part that was removed was "But if you insist on continuing your unrealistic condescending comments I have no issue with continuing this discussion." Tell me, is that something that warranted an edit?

Not 100% correct. The exact wording I edited out was:
"But if you insist on continuing your condescending delusions I have no issue with continuing the discussion."
Calling someones opinion condescending delusions is flaming =>

Flaming is classified as insults of other members of the forum. You may critique an argument, naturally (after all, debates are one of the reasons that this forum exists), but restrain yourself from attacking the person behind that argument. Debates are fine, but they should not degenerate into personal attacks.

It is a personal attack on someone, it was unnescesary (as the rest of your post had/has some good arguments in it) and created the risk of turning the topic into a flamewar. What happened previously or what someone said to you doens't matter. It's not an excuse.

As for the posts leading up to your post in question. I don't go over all the posts and look at how someone might take it. I didn't take the posts as being aimed directly at you. If you have taken offence in what someone posts, please report the post or send one of the heralds / lores a message.

As for the posts after yours, the reason I hadn't responed to them is simply because I hadn't read them yet. I do have other things to do in my life, so I don't read all the posts as they come in. Again, if you have taken offence with the post, report it. That is the fastes way to get any of the lores to look at it. As it stands, I will have a look at the post and edit it / step in if I feel it's needed.

I also feel I haven't "singled you out". I simply edited part of a post I felt was offensive to another member. Not even a slap on the wrist acompanying it.

Here you have the how and why of my edit. If you don't agree with my reasoning, then do take it up with the loremasters. As I said, I'll ask eldacar to have a look at it as well.

Rod

[Lord Anathir]

On seeing Keith's post edited out also I am satisfied. Eye for an eye. Case closed.